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  • Windows 11 announced

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      • #2374025
        Will Fastie
        Manager

        ISSUE 18.24 • 2021-06-28 Watch for our special issue on July 5! MICROSOFT NEWS By Will Fastie Why this? Why now? And what the heck is going on? On Jun
        [See the full post at: Windows 11 announced]

        9 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2374031
        Alex5723
        AskWoody Plus

        There is one part of all this that rings true and may well be the entire underlying reason for the incremented version number — security.

        Since the event, Microsoft has been furiously updating its hardware specification and compatibility pages, removing ambiguity about whether TPM 2.0 was required or not. It is. And TPM 2.0 alone eliminates hundreds of processor models. (Microsoft also updated its compatibility app so that it says why the tested system won’t run 11.)

        Well. It seems that TMP 2.0 is not mandatory if you are an OEM who can squeeze Microsoft :

        (3.6.1)

        A UEFI firmware option to turn off the TPM is not required. Upon approval from Microsoft, OEM systems for special purpose commercial
        systems, custom order, and customer systems with a custom image are not required to ship with a TPM support enabled.

        There is a new update that Windows 11 will support TMP 1.2

        “CPU: Core >= 2 and Speed >= 1 GHz
        System Memory: TotalPhysicalRam >= 4 GB
        Storage: 64 GB
        Security: TPM Version >= 1.2 and SecureBootCapable = True”

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2374036
        ScotchJohn
        AskWoody Plus

        Microsoft’s PC Health Check tells me that I cannot run Windows 11, because my PC must support Secure Boot.  How’s that for a system only four years old?  Is this all a device by MS to make us go out and buy new systems?

        It looks as if the PC world is going to divide between the sheep and the goats, though I’m not going to say which is which.

        Dell E5570 Latitude, Intel Core i5 6440@2.60 GHz, 8.00 GB - Win 10 Pro

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2374206
          Ben Myers
          AskWoody Plus

          Dell set up your system at the factory without Secure Boot.  It’s relatively easy to change a BIOS setting to enable it.

          2 users thanked author for this post.
          • #2374461
            anonymous
            Guest

            Yes but with a 6th-gen Intel core chip, you can forget about Windows 11

      • #2374049
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        I don’t know if it was included in the Windows 11 presentation, but coincident with it, the ultimate end of support for Windows 10 was set as October 2025.

        The hardware requirements alone will turn Windows 10 into the next iteration of Windows XP and Windows 7 for exactly the reason you cite:  the vast majority of computers in the world can’t run Windows 11 as long as the hardware requirements remain as stated.

        There is a reason there as so many “old” computers still in service – many of which run Windows 10 without a whimper:  They do indeed get the work done.

        I’ll go you one better than 10-year-old Optiplex PC: Dell Latitude D630.  With 4 GB of memory and an SSD, they handle Windows 10 quite nicely.  They won’t blow off an i7 with 16 GB but they work great for what a lot of folks need to do.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2374055
        steeviebops
        AskWoody Lounger

        Windows 8 — COM (component object model) apps no longer ran in Windows, the first time in nearly 30 years that a Microsoft operating system killed off older apps. I had 250 or so useful COM utilities, some of which I miss, but mostly no one noticed except gamers with very old games.

        I’ve never heard of this at all. Are you confusing DCOM with MS-DOS applications with a .com extension? If so, this is down to 64-bit versions of Windows removing NTVDM and nothing to do with Windows 8. x64 versions of XP, Vista and 7 have the same limitation. The only application I had to stop using in Windows 8 was Virtual PC 2007 and that was due to incompatible kernel mode drivers.

      • #2374057
        EricB
        AskWoody Plus

        In the past I moved to Linux Mint on my old system when Vista reached EOL.  When that system died I purchased a new system that arrived with Windows 10.  When Windows 10 reaches EOS I’m not going to abandon a functional system and spend thousands to buy a new one because of MS hardware requirements.

        Right now I use VirtualBox to run a Linux Mint VM to keep current on that environment.  When MS stops supporting Windows 10 and if there is no upgrade path I’ll be ready to install Mint on the bare metal box and return to Linux as my primary operating system.

        2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2374059
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        When MS stops supporting Windows 10 and if there is no upgrade path I’ll be ready to install Mint on the bare metal box and return to Linux as my primary operating system

        I wonder if this is what finally gives Linux some real traction.   Moving wouldn’t be cheap, but for a company whose alternative is a forklift upgrade of much of its installed hardware, it might be less expensive, not to mention the anger Microsoft is generating for this boneheaded forced obsolescence of hundreds of millions of computers.

        The only ones who may, and I mean may come out ahead are the PC manufacturers, but only to the extent that buyers buy into Windows 11.

        4 users thanked author for this post.
        • #2374449
          Ben Myers
          AskWoody Plus

          It can take a forklift to migrate to Linux, too.  I have no problem whatsoever navigating around a typical Linux desktop, but were I to think of a move to Linux, I’d have to consider:

          1. I need apps that replace the ones I use with Windows.
          2. So the apps are functionally equivalent to the ones in Windows.  What about data formats and data migration?
          3. I need training or some learning to use the Linux apps.
          4. Consider these Windows apps: Office, Acrobat Pro, PhotoShop, QuickBooks.  These are the typical ones used in an office environment and even in a home setting.  I can replace Office with LibreOffice, Acrobat Pro with what?, PhotoShop with GIMP and a whole learning process, QuickBooks with what?

          Moving to Linux gets dicey for me, and I cannot imagine some of my clients moving to Linux, not even the ones with a lot of computer knowledge.

          Windows 11 and Linux need different forklifts.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2374073
        Will Fastie
        Manager

        I don’t know if it was included in the Windows 11 presentation, but coincident with it, the ultimate end of support for Windows 10 was set as October 2025.

        The Microsoft lifecycle documentation has long specified October 14, 2025, as the official end-of-support date for Windows 10. The date has been baked in stone for a long time; it’s not new.

        What is new is the lack of clarity regarding the end-of-life for Windows 11. So far, no definite date has been given. But I’m not aware of any change to the GSA rules, which means that Microsoft would have to conform to the 10-year rule for software if it wanted to sell Windows 11 to the US government.

        3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2374080
        Will Fastie
        Manager

        There is a new update that Windows 11 will support TMP 1.2

        The update in that article is wrong. Every specification page at Microsoft now says TPM 2.0 is required.

        I don’t blame the author of that article for getting it wrong. Microsoft docs were in furious flux for 36 hours after the event. And I wouldn’t rely on a downloaded Microsoft PDF just yet – with all the confusion, it will take Microsoft some time to look in every nook and cranny.

         

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2374084
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        I don’t know if it was included in the Windows 11 presentation, but coincident with it, the ultimate end of support for Windows 10 was set as October 2025.

        The Microsoft lifecycle documentation has long specified October 14, 2025, as the official end-of-support date for Windows 10. The date has been baked in stone for a long time; it’s not new.

        What is new is the lack of clarity regarding the end-of-life for Windows 11. So far, no definite date has been given. But I’m not aware of any change to the GSA rules, which means that Microsoft would have to conform to the 10-year rule for software if it wanted to sell Windows 11 to the US government.

        The Microsoft lifecycle documentation has long specified October 14, 2025, as the official end-of-support date for Windows 10. The date has been baked in stone for a long time; it’s not new.

        Wouldn’t be the first time I misread something.  I stand corrected.

      • #2374088
        Will Fastie
        Manager

        I stand corrected.

        Given the utter state of confusion surrounding the Windows 11 announcement, including updates to the Life Cycle FAQ, I wouldn’t be surprised if all of us were corrected on a daily basis.

        Actually, now that I think about it, those poor reporters on a 24/7 news cycle in the mainstream trade press have issued multiple updates and corrections to the articles they filed six seconds after the event ended.

        • #2374524
          Ascaris
          AskWoody MVP

          Will, I remember the time around the launch of Windows 10 pretty well. I had the URL to the Windows life cycle page bookmarked and I linked it a few times in response to the “Windows 10 forever” verbiage from Microsoft. One time when I went to do the same yet again, I checked the link’s target page to verify that it still said what I thought it did, and the end date for Windows 10 as a whole was no longer there. It was just about each build of Windows, with an end date for each of those, but no reference to the 2025 date that I had cited before.

          I think this is where the schism over the 2025 end date has come from. MS initially published the 2025 date, so those who have said the date is nothing new are correct; it was the date that was listed from the beginning. But somewhere in there, the end of life page reflected the “Windows 10 forever” rhetoric from Microsoft, so the return to that original end date 10 years after the release is noteworthy. A concrete end date for the entire Windows 10 line is, of course, incompatible with the idea of “the last version of Windows ever,” which was their line for quite some time (which was the point I was making each time I linked that page that showed the Win 10 end date early on).

          Group "L" (KDE Neon Linux 5.22.4 User Edition)

          3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2374103
        ScotchJohn
        AskWoody Plus

        Amongst all the confusion of the Windows 11 “launch”, I wonder whether it is a complete coincidence that my Inbox today has a mail from Apple, typically Apple-cool, in which they remind us of what THEY announced at WWDC21 three weeks ago, all the new features of iOS 15, iPadOS 15, macOS Monterrey and watchOS 8.

        Dell E5570 Latitude, Intel Core i5 6440@2.60 GHz, 8.00 GB - Win 10 Pro

        • #2374529
          Ascaris
          AskWoody MVP

          I don’t think it is a coincidence at all. Neither is the resemblance of the new centered taskbar to the Dock (though the Mac also has the universal menu bar at the top, though it is probably not called that, with the notification icons and clock). Microsoft seems to be trying to copy every idea it can find, which is kinda nuts when you consider that the entities it is copying have ~10% and ~2% of the desktop market (Mac and Linux, respectively). Why would you drop what got you to 90% and go after what got Apple to almost an order of magnitude less market share than that?

          The only thing that seems plausible is that either they wish to exit the OS market and concentrate on the cloud, which is making piles of money for them at the moment, and this is a way of liquidating the massive market share (monetize it to death, then let it go), or they think that somehow they will be able to get Apple-type cash from an Apple-type app store. Rather than try to come up with a Microsoftian kind of solution to that, Nadella’s Microsoft seems to just be grabbing every idea from anywhere and throwing it blindly against the wall to see what sticks.

          Group "L" (KDE Neon Linux 5.22.4 User Edition)

          3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2374114
        anonymous
        Guest

        I ran a program called WhyNotWin11 that was mentioned on ghacks. The results showed that my computer failed six of the eleven checks. My computer now runs Windows 10, video editing and audio encoding all without a whimper. That being said, I see no reason to buy another computer just to run Windows 11.

        2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #2374125
          blueboy714
          AskWoody Plus

          Best Beginning of an AskWoody Article Ever…

          Windows 11 announced

          Why this? Why now? And what the heck is going on?

          On June 24, 2021, Microsoft announced Windows 11. I have no idea why. It is surely not for the cobbled-together reasons the company gave during its rather brief briefing on Thursday.

          **

          When I bought my Win10 PC a year I doubled and tripled what the specifications told me I needed knowing I would more.  Yesterday, when I ran the PC Health Check to find out if my PC would work for Win11 I get the warning that “This PC can’t run Windows 11.  TPM2.0 is a requirement for running Windows 11.”

          Wonderful – thanks MS.   Just what I want to do is go out and buy a new PC or expensive computer chip.

           

          3 users thanked author for this post.
          • #2374133
            milleron
            AskWoody Plus

            Best Beginning of an AskWoody Article Ever…

            Windows 11 announced

            Why this? Why now? And what the heck is going on?

            On June 24, 2021, Microsoft announced Windows 11. I have no idea why. It is surely not for the cobbled-together reasons the company gave during its rather brief briefing on Thursday.

            **

            When I bought my Win10 PC a year I doubled and tripled what the specifications told me I needed knowing I would more.  Yesterday, when I ran the PC Health Check to find out if my PC would work for Win11 I get the warning that “This PC can’t run Windows 11.  TPM2.0 is a requirement for running Windows 11.”

            Wonderful – thanks MS.   Just what I want to do is go out and buy a new PC or expensive computer chip.

             

            IF your new computer is a desktop and its  motherboard has a TPM socket, the plug-in TPMs ate not what I’d call “expensive.” Name-brand ones from Asus and Gigabyte are only about $25

          • #2374393
            rbailin
            AskWoody Plus

            Some newer Intel motherboards have a UEFI/BIOS setting to emulate TPM called Intel Platform Trust Technology (PTT) on systems without a TPM module in order to use security features such as Bitlocker. I’m not certain if this is an adequate replacement for Win11’s TPM 2.0 requirement.

            • #2374530
              Ascaris
              AskWoody MVP

              Reports that I have read indicate that these are generally (but with some reports to the contrary) sufficient for the Windows 11 checker.

              Group "L" (KDE Neon Linux 5.22.4 User Edition)

      • #2374027
        anonymous
        Guest

        The link listed near the end for features, requirements and things being removed is not found.

      • #2374056
        anonymous
        Guest

        Woody, Thank you very much for your well-thought-out and very thought-provoking article. Bob Hill

      • #2374123
        milleron
        AskWoody Plus

        I’m not an IT pro, but I gained  a rudimentary understanding of the Trusted Platform system from some hasty Google searches.

        **  My first question is why MS thinks a TPM should be mandatory for Windows 11 Home. In the Enterprise versions it makes sense, and in that sector, TPMs have probably been enabled for years already, but why is it necessary for domestic users on the laptop they keep in their bedroom?

        **  My second question is what the effect will be for users currently running Windows 10 in VMs, especially on Macs, none of which have literal TPMs?

         

        2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2374140
        WSdatabaseben
        AskWoody Lounger

        It’s irritating.  I have a stack of laptops in my closet with worthless Windows o.s.’s.   I also have have a basket with worthless cell phones too.  I suspect that everyone in america will be forced to upgrade, one way or another.  🙁

        ps: my closet also has a couple of vcr’s too !

        • #2374187
          WSjaflady
          AskWoody Plus

          Your closet and mine should get married.  I have 7 old laptops awaiting wiping which I somehow have not gotten to yet.  I did manage to get 4 old desktops wiped and out the door.  Yet of the 5 remaining more current computers ages 11 to 2 I think none will run Win11 and all are doing fine on 10 so not buying anything newer for a while.

          Don’t ask me about old VCRs, tape decks and the like.  Just cannot get rid of them all.  Actually I have a great tape deck, CD player and use it all the time along with the record player – best sound for music.  I love new stuff but also the good old stuff.  I will wait awhile to jump into the Win11 pool.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2374147
        blueboy714
        AskWoody Plus

        Well over the past few days that price tag has gone up.

        I’ve seen prices $100+ now that the scalpers and hoarders are getting in on the fun.

        • #2374531
          Ascaris
          AskWoody MVP

          What’s the hurry? Windows 11 isn’t even out yet.

          Group "L" (KDE Neon Linux 5.22.4 User Edition)

      • #2374178
        Amy Babinchak
        Manager

        Your 4th generation i5 processor was released in 2014. That predates Windows 10 even. We have major security problems. We are under attack from foreign and domestic terrorists. Security is no longer an option. To continue to run old equipment is to be part of the problem. We decry that we need more security but then cry when the solution arrives.

        3 users thanked author for this post.
        • #2374212
          WSjaflady
          AskWoody Plus

          I think you are correct most especially for business and enterprise.  Many are woefully behind in updating equipment and very vulnerable.  But it is a very expensive process especially coming out of the current economic condition and I suspect that many small businesses will simply be unable to do much about new equipment for a while.

          On the personal front, many of us are lucky enough to be able to buy a new computer or two within a year but many more are not.  In my family we have several working computers which are running wonderfully and far from ready for a scrapheap so I am hoping that with security such a serious problem we can have some improvement in software to help mitigate the security issues.

          This was an informative article which I appreciate.  I have been reading about the security problems with older hardware other places so I understand this is a real issue which we must all address.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2374184
        MrChaz
        AskWoody Lounger

        From a personal computing perspective, ChromeOS now looks more appealing, simplicity with ease of use, from what I’ve seen, heard and read, if you don’t mind google goggling as a homeuser. Although the lifecycle of ChromeOS needs to be extended beyond the current to make me shift over come 2023. Yes I’d even pay more for extended Google support at device sale price.

        On the other hand, OEM’s will be delighted at that hardware cut-off.

        Interesting to see what effect this has on ARM devices moving forward, MS just may have inadvertantly gave ARM a hand.

        illegitimi Non Carborundum
        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2374180
        anonymous
        Guest

        Clearly, the youngsters running MS haven’t learned anything from the past, as far as listening to and giving users what is really needed.  At least it is somewhat “official,” in the MS has decided that US government work is much more important than civilian work.  Now users know where they stand in the scheme of things.

        A three-year old high end PC in 2018 cannot run Windows-11.  How many private companies can afford to discard perfectly good hardware for the (dubious) ability to run WIndows-11?

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2374207
        Ben Myers
        AskWoody Plus

        Folks are caterwauling about the leak of an early version of Windows 11 from supposedly secure Microsoft.  Has anybody considered all the buzz that this has generated already, buzz that will continue to RTM and first shipments?  “Everybody’s talkin’ ’bout it…” Seems to me like the leak is a strategic Microsoft master stroke.

        • #2374465
          anonymous
          Guest

          It was a spectacularly stupid own goal from Microsoft, because it proves beyond a shadow of doubt that Win 11 works just fine on older PCs. Microsoft is betraying Windows users with this disgustingly shameful display of superiority. Not everyone is on Satya Nadella or Panos Panay’s inflated multi-million pay packets.

          Betray the traitors at Microsoft right back – buy a Mac, install Linux, use a Chromebook, stay on Windows 10, but don’t support the scum at Microsoft who DON’T SUPPORT YOU!

      • #2374226
        EP
        AskWoody_MVP

        one feature update a year for Windows 11:

        Windows 11 will move to an annual update cadence, gets a new support lifecycle

        why couldn’t MS do that with Windows 10?

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2374232
        Will Fastie
        Manager

        My first question is why MS thinks a TPM should be mandatory for Windows 11 Home.

        My gut-level response to this is that Microsoft would just as well see the Home edition vanish. When helping family, friends, and clients, I never recommend the Home edition for anything.

        My reasoned response is that one reason for beefing up security at the client computer level is to prevent those clients from becoming threat vectors to cloud services, such as Microsoft 365.  Home edition users can sign up for 365 and other such services, too.

        4 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2374249
        Alex5723
        AskWoody Plus

        removed

      • #2374252
        dsliesse
        AskWoody Plus

        The specifics notwithstanding, I’m actually glad the announcement doesn’t come with a lot of hype.  An operating system should be boring, by design, and certainly shouldn’t merit the over-the-top hype Apple is known for.  (Of course, iOS is a closed operating environment, more than just an operating system — and it gnaws at me that Microsoft follows this trend more and more with each release.  Wish I had the time to spend testing how many of my applications will run on Linux, in addition to running my business and the other organizations I’m involved in!)

      • #2374256
        AlexEiffel
        AskWoody_MVP

        Thanks Will for again such a great enlighting post.

        Your thought on the government law as a reason for Windows 11 is interesting. I am not sure that Windows 10 respects the spirit of the law. It would be great if they amended the law to require 10 years of supported but not feature update in the OS. But I guess then you would have to shell out for an even more expensive super enterprise government law abiding option. 😉

        The change to once a year of feature updates probably shows it doesn’t make people happy to have twice a year updates and is not that useful to Microsoft’s plans either. Anyway, they can always break Widows search or shove down your throat their news and interests monetization scheme without needing a feature update to justify it or even a Windows update in some cases.

        I also thought this move is also about security. Windows 11 seem like a goal for later, a project that is incomplete. They may need to require TPM to ensure more security. Maybe they also plan to better contain software with some of the features that Windows 10X was supposed to have. To go there, they could make a containerized Office version maybe and it would be a good start for PCs that are commonly running only Windows and Office in business?

        What is the best way to go toward this new OS? Announce a new look to give a reason and generate interest of casual folks that mostly see the interface as the OS, while requiring each new PC to have TPM so they can put the Windows 11 ready sticker on them because people will ask for it. Wait a few years, leave others to run Win 10 because anyway support was there until 2025, but when 2025 comes, there will be a lot less non compliant PCs and then they could enforce some features that require TPM.

        I think it would be great if someone wrote an explanation article as to why TPM could be required that the casual users can understand. At least one article I read trying to figure out why TPM was required I felt the tech journalist wasn’t really understanding what he was talking about and was repeating general statements without the technical reasons behind.

        As for zero trust initiative, I haven’t read enough about it, but I am not sure that it will  work that great. It reminds me of this idea that verifying that the home computer runs an antivirus was enough to deem it as safe enough to connect to corporate network a long time ago or that SSL vpn was a good idea because you could log in from anywhere, including form the shared hotel PC. Sometimes, security peddlers can tell you ridiculous things to sell you things you should know doesn’t work and will never be good enough. Personally, I never allowed any personal device on the corporate network and I think it is much less hassle and risk that way.

        2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2374258
        Will Fastie
        Manager

        What is the best way to go toward this new OS?

        You can expect more from us on these issues.

        Oh, wait, I have to buy a new PC first.

        You know how stand-up comics always hope for the election of a president most vulnerable to jokes? It’s four years of instant grist for the comedy mill. Windows 11? Same thing for us, albeit with less humor.

        5 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2374229
        anonymous
        Guest

        Good article.

        Except for one point. You, and all of the media, keep picking a “purchase” date, be it 2, 3 or 4 years old as the cut off. The age of the computer is not the problem. It is only a very approximate indicator. Intel 8th Gen came out Nov 2017, 3.5 years ago, so yes, any computer older than that pretty much hit the wall. Builders and vendors continue to use “older” (not current gen) chips to build lower priced computer for years after next gen is released.

        Reputable builders are still using older “high end” chips in new computers that sell at lower prices than current gen “leading edge” chips.  A quick search found a couple of “high end” (1 gaming, the other “business”) computers with i7-7700 chips being sold for over $2K right now by a name brand vendor.

        • #2374737
          R
          AskWoody Plus

          Problem here is, that from the end user perspective there is near no difference between for example an i7 dating from 2015 and an i7 from 2021. First of all there are so many varieties that comparing 1:1 is impossible. Besides that, the speed (and with that I mean the netto processor power in relation to the tasks that need to be done) of Intel CPU’s didn’t improve much over the last 8 years or so. And for the foreseeable future will not increase much either. They reached their maximum of what is achievable within their architecture. Yes, Intel can add more and more and more cores. Nice, but for the end user not that interesting. They want to work in Office (which works speedy in even a laptop from 2014, if one took the ‘effort’ to upgrade the old HD to an SSD). Browse websites (use the latest Firefox or Chrome and you’re fine), send and receive mail (mostly webbased nowadays). Some will want to play a game. If you own a desktop, upgrading the GPU has a thousand times more influence then upgrading a CPU. Only hardcore gamers go for the max, not the casual gamer.

          Sadly enough, many bought or got laptops to work from home during Covid. Even from these brand new laptops (and pc’s too) a large part is not compatible with Windows 11. Some indeed don’t have TPM 2.0 onboard, in others the thing isn’t switched on in the BIOS for some stupid reason. At least 75% of the average users will not be able to switch it on in the BIOS. The few that manage that get into the BIOS might start to be too curious and mess up their system. All in all: not very smart to roll out an OS while knowing a large part of your users has hardware that is far from ready for it.

          You can say or think whatever you want about Apple, but they manage to switch complete processor architectures without a hiccup. They did before a couple of times and they’re doing it now. Also, they never used a TPM. There are other and similar techniques that can be used, also in software. These don’t have to necessarily be worse or better than a hardware TPM. Nothing wrong with the idea of TPM, but it’s for sure not THE holy grail in matter of security.

          As said before: to me it sounds all like a shady deal between Microsoft and Intel, to get rid of buggy ‘old’ cpu’s that require maintenance in the form of regular microcode-updates. Too costly for especially Intel, and too tiresome for Microsoft. Since Intel has now only Windows left as mainstream OS for their architecture, that leads to one protecting the other in all possible ways. Even if that means showing the middle finger to your existing clients.

          Hopefully also businesses will understand that they are not treated as valuable anymore by both Microsoft and Intel. There will be a few very interesting years ahead of us. Looks like that someone at Microsoft finally pressed the self destruct button on Windows. Now it’s up to the customers if that’ll be a slo mo destruct or a high speed implosion.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2374250
        Bob_S
        AskWoody Plus

        I understand that security is the driving force for Win11 but take a look at history. TPM 1.2 was hacked long ago as well as other implementations of TPM.  We’re lead to believe that the enterprise and government market has been using TPM for years. So what has TPM accomplished and what will it do to prevent future data breaches?

        The list of major hacks and stolen data in the past year alone tells me that TPM is not a viable deterrent to ransomware. Anyone read any reports that TPM saved the day on a ransomware attack?

        So tell us again why TPM is a good thing for the masses…

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2374268
          b
          AskWoody MVP

          Anyone read any reports that TPM saved the day on a ransomware attack?

          When do we ever read anything about failed or foiled ransomware attacks?

          Windows 10 Pro version 21H2 build 19044.1151 + Microsoft 365 (group ASAP)

          3 users thanked author for this post.
          • #2374426
            Bob_S
            AskWoody Plus

            I would suggest you do a simple search using “articles about failed or foiled ransomware attacks”

            Granted, the articles don’t make headlines like ransomware attacks do but if enterprise and gov’t entities are using TPM – then how is it that the data stolen is unencrypted and sold off?  Billions of users personal data and credentials are sold every year.

            So I just don’t see how TPM benefits security and many others think it’s a false security.

            • #2374451
              b
              AskWoody MVP

              I would suggest you do a simple search using “articles about failed or foiled ransomware attacks”

              Even if you find a headline that says “failed ransomware attack”, if you check the details, it was never a complete failure:

               

              Hackers tried (and failed) to install ransomware using a zero-day in Sophos firewalls
              XG firewalls where the auto-update feature was not enabled and where system administrators failed to manually install the patch were most likely infected.

              ZDNet asked Sophos today about the number of incidents where hackers managed to successfully install the ransomware after companies failed to patch systems.

               

              Canadian MSP discloses data breach, failed ransomware attack
              Threat actors were not able to complete the attack and encrypt files on the company systems but they spent enough time on the network to access sensitive information and also steal some of it.

              An investigation of the incident conducted by a cyber forensic firm revealed on July 1 that the intruders had access to and exfiltrated “limited personal information of US employees and consultants.”

              Specifically, inspection revealed on July 7 that the attackers compromised names, addresses, dates of birth, gender, disability status, and type of insurance coverage.

              They also pulled payroll data (details about deductions, 401k forms, income, and benefits), banking details (routing and account numbers), social security numbers and related information.

               

              Personal Data of Over 540,000 Sports Referees Leaked in Failed Ransomware Attack

              Foiled Ransomware Attack
              Despite detecting and blocking the attackers from encrypting the systems, ArbiterSports stated that hackers pilfered a backup copy of its database. The exposed database contained data from ArbiterGame, ArbiterOne, and ArbiterWorks web applications used by sports leagues to manage their schedules. The compromised data included account usernames and passwords, names, addresses, birth dates, email addresses, and Social Security numbers. The passwords and Social Security numbers were encrypted in the file, but the unauthorized party was able to decrypt the data.

              “Although we were able to prevent devices from being encrypted, the unauthorized party demanded payment in exchange for deleting the files that were obtained. We reached an agreement and obtained confirmation that the unauthorized party deleted the files,” ArbiterSports said.

               

              Granted, the articles don’t make headlines like ransomware attacks do but if enterprise and gov’t entities are using TPM – then how is it that the data stolen is unencrypted and sold off?  Billions of users personal data and credentials are sold every year.

              TPM isn’t just about data encryption, but why do you assume they’re already using TPM?

               

              So I just don’t see how TPM benefits security and many others think it’s a false security.

              Many others think … ? Oh please!

              In the real world, TPM allows for things like:

              BitLocker Drive Encryption

              Windows Hello PINs and biometrics

              Windows Defender System Guard

              Tamper detection of the PCs hardware

              Virtual Smart card

              Credential Guard

              Secure Boot

              With TPM, BitLocker gets to store the encryption key and your Windows Hello biometrics securely. This ability is why Windows Hello is so protected. Your biometrics, like fingerprints or facial recognition data, do not go to the cloud; instead, they get hardware encrypted on your PC so that info cannot be retrieved nor reversed engineered to bypass your PC’s login process.

              Secure boot is becoming increasingly important, too. From Microsoft’s documentation:

              Secure boot is a security standard developed by members of the PC industry to help make sure that a device boots using only software that is trusted by the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM). When the PC starts, the firmware checks the signature of each piece of boot software, including UEFI firmware drivers (also known as Option ROMs), EFI applications, and the operating system. If the signatures are valid, the PC boots, and the firmware gives control to the operating system.

              Why is TPM a thing

              Windows 10 Pro version 21H2 build 19044.1151 + Microsoft 365 (group ASAP)

              1 user thanked author for this post.
              • #2374571
                Bob_S
                AskWoody Plus

                Wow…. Guess b is the expert here and no one else can have an opinion. You need to do a bit more research and learn that there really are others that state TPM is false security. To help you out, search on ‘Is TPM false security’.

                I think you need a break and you also need to stop trying to prove you’re better than anyone else. Smart a** replies only show your ignorance on the subject.

                 

              • #2374576
                b
                AskWoody MVP

                To help you out, search on ‘Is TPM false security’.

                How about you do the search this time?

                I did the last search you suggested (and could find no reports of truly failed or foiled ransomware attacks).

                Windows 10 Pro version 21H2 build 19044.1151 + Microsoft 365 (group ASAP)

              • #2374659
                Bob_S
                AskWoody Plus

                There’s no sense in trying to have a discussion with you when all you want to do is distort what has been said.  I searched and found a number of articles using your words of “failed or foiled ransomware attacks” and you now add “truly’. My point was, there are plenty of articles out there on that subject – proving your statement wrong.

                I did do a search and read articles about TPM providing a false sense of security but to help you out, this one was at the top of the search and I think it speaks to the point:

                What is a TPM, and Why Does Windows Need One For Disk Encryption? (howtogeek.com)

                The relevant comment on this one is ”

                “The only thing that TPM is almost guaranteed to provide is a false sense of security,” says the FAQ. It says that a TPM is, at best, “redundant”.

                https://www.alphr.com/bitlocker-without-tpm/

                “Some computers aren’t equipped with a TPM, and the argument has been made that the TPM is redundant and provides a false sense of security. So, while BitLocker would normally require a TPM to function, there are ways to activate it with software-based encryption through a longer process.”

                And the list goes on.  The point is that TPM made the headlines as a “requirement for Win11” and therefor for the masses and that has upset a lot of people because it makes for a lot of obsolete equipment.

                The CPU requirement is also creating a lot of backlash. I have Win10 Pro x64 running on a system lab rat that has an Intel Core i7 930 CPU on a Gigabyte motherboard that can run any client software I want to test and that system is 11 years old. The motherboard supports TPM and I have the module still on the shelf.

                TPM should be a choice – not a mandated requirement. As for vintage CPU’s the argument again is about security but in all my years in the computer field, I have never seen a system compromised due to a low level kernel attack.

                Security is certainly an issue and newer hardware along with numerous other methods helps minimize the chances of malware attacks.  Microsoft is enforcing a combination of new CPU’s, Secure Boot and sandboxing methods to, as they, “make a dent in ransomware”.  But we all don’t have the needs that NSA, CIA, Military, Government’s and Enterprise level users have – nor the deep pockets.

                We should demand that we have a choice to chose the level of security we want and not leave that decision to some corporation that has been unable to secure their own systems from attack and then preach to us.

                So b, I’ll leave it here. I’ve stated my opinion and that’s all it is and it is based on what I’ve read from hopefully reliable sources and my own experiences of over 40 years working on government, military and commercial systems.  Not an expert – just my opinion.

                1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2374255
        anonymous
        Guest

        ? says:

        “start me up…”  or is that ignite me? many thanks to Mr. Panos Panay et al.

        this wikipedia article claims, “…users will be able to bypass the TPM requirement by modifying thier registry or installation media.”

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_11

        and also:

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_features_removed_in_Windows_11

        i wonder if a kinder, and gentler Microsoft is backing down from all their “telemetry,” hoovering.

        well at least it is free…

      • #2374271
        Alex5723
        AskWoody Plus

        this wikipedia article claims, “…users will be able to bypass the TPM requirement by modifying their registry or installation media.”

        Yes. Just replace Windows 11’s ‘install.esd’ in the ISO file with Windows 10’s ‘install.esd’ or ‘install.wim’ renamed to ‘install.esd’ from the ISO file.

        • #2374316
          anonymous
          Guest

          ? says:

          thanks Alex, would this work whilst installing?:

          During setup, a message will appear saying “This PC can’t run windows 11” because it does not meet the minimum requirements (in this case, it failed the TPM check). When that screen comes up, follow these steps…
          • Press Shift + F10 to bring up the Command Prompt
          • Type regedit.msc to get into the system registry
          • Navigate to HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\Setup
          • Create a new key called LabConfig
          • Edit LabConfig and create the following entries
            BypassTPMCheck=dword:00000001
            BypassSecureBootCheck=dword:00000001
          • Save the changes and continue installing Windows 11
      • #2374277
        Will Fastie
        Manager

        UPDATE: Microsoft today released a blog post titled Update on Windows 11 minimum system requirements. The PC Health Checker tool has been taken offline and, according to the post, will be restored “this fall.”

        The blog post also said that first build of Windows 11 for Insiders on the DEV channel is available today.

        3 users thanked author for this post.
        • #2374298
          Alex5723
          AskWoody Plus

          ..including ensuring we have the ability for Windows Insiders to install Windows 11 on 7th generation processors
          to give us more data about performance and security,..

          1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2374297
        BobT
        AskWoody Lounger

        lol I thought W10 was the “Last version of Windows” (let’s also forget about the Windows Experience, which was touted as the same).

        I also thought it was the most secuuuuuure OS, evar… ?

        2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #2374308
          b
          AskWoody MVP

          It was never the last version, but it is the most secure (so far).

          Windows 10 Pro version 21H2 build 19044.1151 + Microsoft 365 (group ASAP)

          1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2374324
        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody_MVP

        A couple of things bother me…

        I happen to have a circa 2019 high-end workstation that has all the attributes needed to run Windows 11. But…

        *I* will never want to choose to use a Microsoft account. If that’s become a requirement, there are a WHOLE LOT of things wrong with the idea (I won’t go into much detail here, but suffice it to say I’m not comfortable with ANYONE having my administrative account info). MORE control for them means LESS control for me. Given that I can do all the computing I need (including plenty of networking) right now, I’m not seeing an advantage for me in a Microsoft account. A Microsoft cloud-integrated account (vs. a local one) most certainly does not increase security!

        Possibly more immediately pertinent, the health adviser tells me my VMware Workstation-hosted Windows 10 VM is not capable of running Windows 11. Perhaps I need to create a whole new one with all the UEFI and security features enabled, though that seems kind of silly to be brutally honest. Haven’t plumbed all the depths of this yet. But I definitely need to be able to run this turkey on a VM before committing any hardware to it.

        In the hopes that Microsoft will see this, I DO hope that they remove some of the arbitrary slowdowns they’ve introduced into the file system and make Windows 11 faster. Yes, it could be probably twice as fast or more. I’ve been paying attention to how fast I can get data to/from super-high-end flash memory and it’s actually gotten pretty dismal since wayyyy back. You didn’t actually think a progress bar for a single file deletion from an SSD (let alone a high performance array of M.2 drives) made any sense whatsoever, did you?

        -Noel

        8 users thanked author for this post.
        • #2374390
          Average-Jane
          AskWoody Plus

          I view Microsoft Accounts as a bad idea for exactly the control reason.  I’m sure we could all find an article online about how “Google blocked my account for no reason!”.  Now, maybe there was a reason and the author is less than forthright about it.  But…. algorithms make mistakes, and human customer service is not foolproof.  In the Olden Days you backed up your data because if it was on one computer then you were hosed if that computer was lost/destroyed.  Now, you back up your data because if an algorithm decides you’re a Bad Person, whichever silo you put your digital life in will banish you without recourse and good luck getting your data back.

          5 users thanked author for this post.
        • #2374386
          teuhasn2
          AskWoody Plus

          Yeah I feel the same way. Microsoft does everything it can in Win10 short of requiring you to sign in with a Microsoft account when installing Win10. As you know, there are lots of webpages advising users on how to work around this and avoid using a Microsoft account with Win10. That’s what I always do, too.

          But what I’m seeing at this date is that a Microsoft account login will be required to install Win11 Home but not Win11 Pro (several webpages on this including https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-to-require-microsoft-account-and-network-connection-to-set-up-windows-11-home/   You have to delve deeper in the article than the intro paragraph to see the Win11 Pro exception).

          This will have to be monitored as all these requirements can change between their half-baked rush to flesh out Win11 now and the actual release, obviously.

           

          1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2374326
        Alex5723
        AskWoody Plus

        It was never the last version

        So, Microsoft was lying ? If it was lying then how can we be sure it won’t lie again ?

        • #2374331
          b
          AskWoody MVP

          So, Microsoft was lying ?

          But Microsoft representatives never said that Windows 10 would be the last version of Windows—not really. That comment was actually made by Jerry Nixon, a Microsoft developer evangelist who spoke at the company’s ”Tiles, Notifications, and Action Center” presentation about Windows 10 at Microsoft’s Microsoft Ignite conference in 2015. According to the transcript of the session, Nixon’s comment was more of a throwaway line, one that he literally referred to as a segue. Microsoft developers could never talk about what they were currently working on, he said, only what they had worked on and released. That changed with Windows 10, because it was all one platform.

          “All the stuff that’s coming, because even though we were announcing Windows 8.1, we were all really working on Windows 10,” Nixon said at the time. “It’s sort of a bummer in its own way. But that’s not what’s happening today.

          “Right now we’re releasing Windows 10, and because Windows 10 is the last version of Windows, we’re all still working on Windows 10,” Nixon continued. “And it’s really brilliant. So I can say things like, yeah, we’re working on interactive tiles and it’s coming to Windows 10 in one of its future updates, right.”

          Microsoft didn’t deny what Nixon said, but it also didn’t back up the “last version” of Windows, either.

          “Recent comments at Ignite about Windows 10 are reflective of the way Windows will be delivered as a service bringing new innovations and updates in an ongoing manner, with continuous value for our consumer and business customers,” says a Microsoft spokesperson in a statement to The Verge at the time. “We aren’t speaking to future branding at this time, but customers can be confident Windows 10 will remain up-to-date and power a variety of devices from PCs to phones to Surface Hub to HoloLens and Xbox.”

          Why is there a Windows 11 if Windows 10 is the last Windows?

          Windows 10 Pro version 21H2 build 19044.1151 + Microsoft 365 (group ASAP)

          3 users thanked author for this post.
        • #2374440
          Cee Arr
          AskWoody Plus

          @alex5723 if their lips are moving they’re lying – like politicians.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2374336
        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody_MVP

        Of course, Marketing feels they can use whatever arbitrary meaning of “secure” they desire. Anything’s possible if you simply redefine the language to suit your business goals.

        -Noel

        • #2374341
          b
          AskWoody MVP

          How has Microsoft redefined “secure”?

          Windows 10 Pro version 21H2 build 19044.1151 + Microsoft 365 (group ASAP)

          1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2374345
          anonymous
          Guest

          Ain’t that the truth !

          Or should it be, “That ain’t no lie”  ?

      • #2374344
        anonymous
        Guest

        If you work in Enterprise tech you know all about the 5/10 year cycle. When you have several vendors with different software/hardware expiry dates, you have a very clear understanding of chaos.   I was in tech support for over 40 years in a very large company and not only that I spent the last 15 of those years in strategic planning.  We had to plan the hardware and software for 350K employees.  One learns that vendors have a feeding schedule. It’s like tending zoo animals – you know that the big  carnivores have ravenous appetites.  Miss a meal and they can turn on you (also eat you).

        Companies will be ramping up for W11 and making deals on the  new hardware that MS designates as a requirement.  It is expected.  I fully expect that if a company chose MS as their hardware supplier for W10, it is likely that they may not renew that contract. I expect a suit may want a high-end Surface but they get them as gifts anyway.

        It is the Enterprise(s) that will determine the success or failure of W11.  We get fed to0 – sweeties are our preferred sustenance. We need the energy.

         

      • #2374357
        ibe98765
        AskWoody Plus

        A lot of people have been complaining about MS locking the taskbar to the bottom of the screen, especially people with wide monitors that want to maximize screen space.  Unsure if MS will still offer auto hide.

        Me, I have run my taskbar on the right side of the monitor with auto hide since forever and I also use Quick Launch.  Removal of support for this will keep me on Win10 or move me to Linux.

        2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #2374367
          Noel Carboni
          AskWoody_MVP

          Yeah, I prefer the Taskbar on top myself, having cut my teeth in GUI land when that’s just where it was. If I wanted a “Dock” I’d buy an Apple.

          -Noel

          1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2374364
        Noel Carboni
        AskWoody_MVP

        How has Microsoft redefined “secure”?

        Enthusiastically!

        Let’s be real here… Calling Windows 10 is “The most secure Windows ever” appears to redefine the word “secure” to be just about opposite most folks’ nominal, plain English interpretation.

        Windows 10 is hands-down the most online-connected, telemetry-laden, insanely-complex, as-a-service-managed-by-someone-else Windows ever! Common sense tells us those things serve to lessen security, not increase it.

        How are YOU wanting to define “secure”?

        Windows, when configured well, has since NT been capable of being incredibly secure. One could easily argue that with Internet Explorer configured with reasonable zones and the system set up to NOT connect willy nilly online that Windows 7 or 8.1 could be the most secure ever. I have set up and used a fair number of such systems myself. I have some now. Online for what I wanted, I know every network access, have never had a hint of an infection, and no loss of data. I know how I prefer to define “secure”, and it’s closely related to “control”.

        -Noel

        2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #2374368
          rc primak
          AskWoody_MVP

          Let’s be careful not to conflate security with privacy. Telemetry does not make for less security in itself, but it does impact privacy.

          Cloud connected services in themselves may or may not impact security. Again, it’s privacy which is most likely at risk.

          Complexity makes for more points of failure, so that could impact security if handled wrong.

          Loss of end-user control means in most cases I’ve seen, that end users cannot turn OFF (or intentionally bypass) security features, not that they can’t turn them ON. So no, loss of personal control does not equal loss of security. Quite the opposite in most cases.

          -- rc primak

          2 users thanked author for this post.
          JohnW, b
          • #2374434
            Noel Carboni
            AskWoody_MVP

            Not meaning to be argumentative – and I know you have a lot of experience too – but details matter… In my opinion privacy is a strong component of how “security” should be defined.

            If data about what you’re doing is being sent online by system A and no data is being sent by system B, it’s pretty darned hard to argue that system A is in any way more secure.

            Imagine extremes…

            • System A continually spouts off about everything it does online.
            • System B is humming on a desk right next to system A but with no active connections to the network at all.

            Which do you think would be more likely to be attacked? Maybe have the data on its MyBook drive wiped?

            And in case you didn’t notice, we are afforded less and less control over what we would like communicated. The time has come and gone where we can disable telemetry entirely. Why? Because Windows is almost free? Why can’t I, as a sophisticated individual user, buy a variant (yes, send more $$$) that doesn’t send anything? Remember Windows Ultimate? I want Ultimate. I would pay for Ultimate. I don’t think I’m alone.

            -Noel

            4 users thanked author for this post.
            • #2374444
              b
              AskWoody MVP

              System B is humming on a desk right next to system A but with no active connections to the network at all.

              Now that’s what I call redefining “secure”.

              Windows 10 Pro version 21H2 build 19044.1151 + Microsoft 365 (group ASAP)

            • #2375108
              rc primak
              AskWoody_MVP

              System B is humming on a desk right next to system A but with no active connections to the network at all.

              Secure, yes. But useful? That is very doubtful.

              Let’s stick with realistic end-user cases. Nearly all people (yourself and a few other Lounge people excluded) would not know how to live without a Web Connection for their daily computer activities. That’s the real world.

              -- rc primak

      • #2374369
        anonymous
        Guest

        If that means from now on Windows 10 will only receive security updates and not being messed up with ‘new features’, it will become more and more stable over the next four years.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2374422
          Seff
          AskWoody Plus

          And after that it will continue under the protection of 0patch no doubt, the demand for which will be massive if MS sticks to its current minimum hardware requirements for W11.

          2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #2374435
          Noel Carboni
          AskWoody_MVP

          If that means from now on Windows 10 will only receive security updates and not being messed up with ‘new features’, it will become more and more stable over the next four years.

          Gee, we can only hope.

          -Noel

      • #2374374
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        Your 4th generation i5 processor was released in 2014. That predates Windows 10 even. We have major security problems. We are under attack from foreign and domestic terrorists. Security is no longer an option. To continue to run old equipment is to be part of the problem. We decry that we need more security but then cry when the solution arrives.

        So what?   How often has hardware been the root cause of a security breach?  Every one that’s made the media has boiled down to a software vulnerability (very often one for which an update had been issued) or human stupidity.]

        More specifically, if you can cite any hardware-caused breaches, how many would have been prevented by TPM?

        4 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2374381
        OscarCP
        AskWoody Plus

        I think there are a few relevant questions and would be nice to get answers to all of them:

        (1) Would MS continue supporting, and for how long, Windows 10 after Windows 11 is finally released for regular home users and Enterprise ones?

        (2) When the Win 11 release happens, will it be possible to get extended Win 10 support, as was the case, first with XP and then with 7?

        (3) If the answer to (3) is YES”, how much would the extended support cost and for how long it may be available?

        (4) If the answer is NO, for those who have machines that cannot run Win 11, athough they can run Win 10 perfect… OK, at all, what will be the practical options to get out of the resulting fix without ditching PCs that are still 5 or so years young??

         

         

        Ex Windows user (Win. 98, XP, 7) since mid-2020. Now: running macOS Mojave & sometimes, Linux (Mint)

        MacBook Pro circa mid-2015, 15" display, with16 GB RAM, 1 TB SSD, a Haswell architecture Intel CPU with 4 Cores and 8 Threads model i7-4870HQ @ 2.50GHz.
        Intel Iris Pro GPU with Built-in Bus, VRAM 1.5 GB, Display 2880 x 1800 Retina, 24-Bit color.
        Waterfox "Current" and (now and then) Chrome. Webroot SA AV and Malwarebytes.

        • #2374398
          joep517
          AskWoody MVP

          No need for extended support when Windows 11 is released. Windows 10 will be supported until October 2025.

          --Joe

      • #2374392
        Will Fastie
        Manager

        (1) Would MS continue supporting, and for how long, Windows 10 after Windows 11 is finally released for regular home users and Enterprise ones?

        October 2025. Microsoft has no choice in that.

        (2) When the Win 11 release happens, will it be possible to get extended Win 10 support, as was the case, first with XP and then with 7?

        I can’t answer that question, but Microsoft is famous for getting it right on the third try. The first try was adding two free years to XP support. The second try was adding two paid years to 7 support. Third try? My guess is nothing. According to the countdown timer at my personal site, Windows 10 support has 1,569 days left to run as of today. That represents more than ample advance notice for anyone to plan.

        I am predicting that Microsoft will not budge this time.

      • #2374397
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        when 2025 comes, there will be a lot less non compliant PCs and then they could enforce some features that require TPM.

        Maybe, maybe not.  To be sure, there will be more than there are now because new computers will – presumably – be compliant.

        But why do you assume that the vast majority of the computers, most of which are “non compliant”, in existence today will go away?    The reason the machines are on desktops and laps now is that they get the jobs done that the companies and people who own the desk and laps want to be done.

        The days of the three-year replacement cycle are long gone for many companies and many people.   Windows 11 is NOT a good enough reason to do so.

        • #2374420
          AlexEiffel
          AskWoody_MVP

          I agree with you. Windows 11 with what it is right now is certainly not a good enough reason to replace any computer. I think it is a work in process with not much good that it could potentially be having been announced. If there is anything to come, I think it will come later after many months of “beta” running what is called Windows 11 by users who upgrade to it thinking they got a new OS because it looks so different and people who buy machines that comes with it.

          I just think that having the TPM requirement for labeling a new PC Windows 11 ready will help get rid of non compliant machines faster, so when Windows 10 is out, it will have accumulated a few years of new machines compliant to Windows 11.

          I still can’t figure out to which extent TPM would enable a fabulous upgrade in security and I am skeptical about any security promises, especially from Microsoft, but I sure welcome any significant advance on that front if it ends up being a real advance.

          I agree with you those old PCs won’t go away fast. Microsoft could change requirements later for updating old computer to 11 in 2025 when all new machines are selling with TPM and Windows 11 anyway. In Microsoft’s view, those folks will have been already “punished” enough by not being able to run Windows 11 for 4 years by deciding not to buy a new machine despite the incentive, but they might not want them out of the monetization machine or run an unsupported OS, because that never looks very good to have your old OS still running unsupported in large numbers. Now at least they will be able to pretend it is because of hardware and not because people prefer the previous OS that they don’t upgrade for free…

          Or they could offer paid support for a few more years of Windows 10, depending on what they plan to offer that is so great with TPM on Windows 11 that it would imply they won’t be able to call the OS Windows 11 if it doesn’t have TPM.

          I’m with Will when he talks about the lack of enthusiasm of Panos Panay and the usual vague statements of Mr. Nadella as an indication that this whole thing wasn’t that much planned. They could have come up with at least a few more exciting technical reasons to sell a new OS than app integrations and a new UI that seems to trade some productivity for looks, especially when they feel they need to say that it is the most, biggest, whatever change that will happen to Windows. Windows 10X was maybe this change, but it was maybe too big of a change for now. Again, Microsoft is the victim of its legacy and also is always relevant because of it.

          Let’s “democratize” computing with a simpler interface that doesn’t do as much and requirements that will exclude the most computers we ever excluded. Yay, that’s inspiring!

          In practice, I think they might back off with requiring TPM to upgrade at some point after the initial marketing incentive to buy a new PC will have run its course with early adopters and they could just leave the requirement for new PCs. You could then run a diminished Windows 11 that couldn’t be certified for whatever security feature would be offered.

          2 users thanked author for this post.
          • #2374537
            Ascaris
            AskWoody MVP

            n practice, I think they might back off with requiring TPM to upgrade at some point after the initial marketing incentive to buy a new PC will have run its course with early adopters and they could just leave the requirement for new PCs.

            I think they may back off that and the 8th gen requirement, just as soon as they’ve succeeded in making Windows 11 the forbidden fruit that everyone must have simply because they have been told they can’t. By contrast, Windows 10 was met with people actively trying to defend against Microsoft’s efforts to slip the upgrade past their defenses. It could be a big “psyop” to get people to demand to have it (and make MS look like the good guy when they agree) and to blunt any complaints thereafter.

            Group "L" (KDE Neon Linux 5.22.4 User Edition)

            1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2374438
          Noel Carboni
          AskWoody_MVP

          Heh, yeah, now we even have capacitors that could actually last 10 years or more.

          I remember a time when people were in agreement that planned obsolescence was evil.

          -Noel

          3 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2374395
        ejm
        AskWoody Plus

        Thanks for this very informative article; my opinions mesh exactly with yours, to the point that Windows 10 will indeed become the next Windows XP and Windows 7. Nice of Microsoft to decide I need new hardware, when both my computers are 4 years old and running like gangbusters. In my case, my processors don’t support Windows 11. Thanks for the link to the supported processors page; I hadn’t found that and it’s very valuable to those of us who also support family and friends. I’m guessing, though that the 2 to 3 year old rule of thumb will hold true unless Microsoft makes changes.

        Just a note to you: the link you provided to the features being removed from Windows 10 yielded a 404. Here’s the link you provided: https://askwoody.us19.list-manage.com/track/click?u=589ef6d038a469ebdf98dc000&id=585e28d5db&e=2e0f03fd33. Since it’s a Microsoft page, I’m guessing that they back-pedaled on providing the list.

        Again, really good article–thank you!

        Elaine

        2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2374409
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        I am predicting that Microsoft will not budge this time.

        You’re probably right but it clearly can change the TPM requirements from mandatory to recommended because it has said it can remove the TPM requirement for OEMs.    It would very smart for it to do so because (1) that’s what 99.5% of the negative reaction to Windows 11 is all about (2) it could – reasonably – claim that it has heard what its customers have to say.

        If not, Windows 10 will become the next Windows XP or Windows 7.  People will not give it up on “1,569 days left to run as of today” just Microsoft says they need a new computer to run Windows 11.  Some can’t because they can’t afford to replace a machine that is working just fine right now, but many won’t because they see no reason to spend the money or because they are fed up with Microsoft.

        Microsoft’s arbitrary and arrogant write-off of the majority of computers in the world may be the best thing to happen to Linux since the penguin.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2374436
          AmbularD
          AskWoody Plus

          I got my first Windows 10 machine last month.  If they think I’m going to buy a new PC when it’s convenient for them, they’re sadly mistaken.  ESU or no ESU, I will kludge together as much security as I can on the high-end machine I just bought and keep going until I’m good and ready to change up.

          That said, my MB either doesn’t have a physical TPM, or it’s not enabled in BIOS, but it and my processor will support one.  That’s actually less irritating to me than the UI changes–specifically, the inability to make custom app folders in the Start menu.  I make heavy use of that feature, and my whole organization system’s going to be nuked if I can’t do it anymore.

          Arbitrary UI redesigns in general irk the heck out of me.  They got it just about perfect in Windows 98 SE, IMO, and every time they’ve messed with it since I’ve had to find a way to revert the changes to make it usable again.  Same with Firefox.  Why do they insist on tinkering with stuff that already looks fine and works well?

          i7-10700k - ASROCK Z590 Pro4 - 1TB 970 EVO Plus M.2 - DDR4 3200 x 32GB - GTX 1070 FTW - Windows 10 Pro

          1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2374431
        rontpxz81
        AskWoody Plus

        Well, Win 11 also requires a GPU with Direct X 12.

      • #2374446
        Will Fastie
        Manager

        Just a note to you: the link you provided to the features being removed from Windows 10 yielded a 404

        Here’s the correct link: Windows 11 Specifications – Microsoft. The link in the online versions of the newsletter are good, but the ones in the email went stale for some people. I’m investigating. I might have made a mistake as well.

        My general advice to readers when this happens is just to go online.

      • #2374450
        Carl
        AskWoody Plus

        I’m not attempting to defend Microsoft, but I’ll address some of comments that have been made.

        1) Since ~2013, Intel and AMD added firmware TPM technology to many of their CPUs that perform the same functionality as a TPM 2.0 processor without the need of a dedicated TPM module.

        2) TPMs are required for devices that are Windows certified. TPM 2.0 has been a requirement for OEM-built Windows 10 machines since 2016.

        3) Microsoft is well aware of the limitations of TPM. So much so that Microsoft, AMD, Intel, and Qualcomm announced its’ demise in November, 2020. Future processors will incorporate a new technology named “Pluton” which will replace TPM functionality and also negate the need for discrete modules. (MS originally developed this for the Xbox)

        (MS Security Blog) Meet the Microsoft Pluton processor

        4) Microsoft is attempting to get a jump on the increasing prevalence of firmware attacks by bad actors. TPM can defend against malicious tampering of your hardware during the boot process.

        5) It’s safer to store encryption keys via TPM.
        6) TPM can be used to prevent dictionary attacks against passwords.
        7) TPM provides random number generation.

        According to Microsoft, the following Windows features require TPM 2.0:

        1) Measured Boot,
        2) Device Encryption,
        3) Windows Defender System Guard,
        4) Device Health Attestation,
        5) Windows Hello/Hello for Business,
        6) TPM Platform Crypto Provider Key Storage,
        7) SecureBIO,
        8) DRTM,
        9) vTPM in Hyper-V (Virtual machines where hypervisors provide virtual TPMs)

        Windows Defender System Guard

        Microsoft states:

        “It is also a foundational security component to Windows in addition to Virtualization Based Security and the enablement of Android Apps on Windows delivered in a secure way.”

        Many could care less about all this, but it will make on-line banking and shopping more secure for example. By MS creating a common security baseline, it will reduce the need to understand complex security concepts with MS doing the work behind the scenes.

        For geeks, it looks like a giant leap toward a Nanny State.

        2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2374452
        Carl
        AskWoody Plus

        As a side-note, for the tin foil crowd (me among them), since new TPM replacement tech “Pluton” I mentioned above was originally developed by MS for the Xbox, some claim that the ulterior motive is DRM. With MS and Pluton controlling the keys to the kingdom …

        You DIY guys that use OEM parts or fiddle with hardware know what I’m thinking. You programmers and hackers that do some things that shall we say are a wee bit naughty also know.

        On the plus side, MS may be able to issue firmware updates for Pluton via Windows Update as security issues arise rather than relying upon Intel, AMD, Qualcomm and motherboard manufacturers.

      • #2374463
        Cybertooth
        AskWoody Plus

        It can take a forklift to migrate to Linux, too.  I have no problem whatsoever navigating around a typical Linux desktop, but were I to think of a move to Linux, I’d have to consider:

        1. I need apps that replace the ones I use with Windows.
        2. So the apps are functionally equivalent to the ones in Windows.  What about data formats and data migration?
        3. I need training or some learning to use the Linux apps.
        4. Consider these Windows apps: Office, Acrobat Pro, PhotoShop, QuickBooks.  These are the typical ones used in an office environment and even in a home setting.  I can replace Office with LibreOffice, Acrobat Pro with what?, PhotoShop with GIMP and a whole learning process, QuickBooks with what?

        Moving to Linux gets dicey for me, and I cannot imagine some of my clients moving to Linux, not even the ones with a lot of computer knowledge.

        Windows 11 and Linux need different forklifts.

        For PDF editing, I use Master PDF Editor on my Kubuntu Linux system. Experience with it has been good so far.

        I don’t have any experience with accounting/financial software on any platform, but a Web search using the terms “accounting software linux” turned up these lists of recommended programs: here, here, and here. (Among others.) With any luck, there will be something that suits your needs.

      • #2374472
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        Microsoft is well aware of the limitations of TPM. So much so that Microsoft, AMD, Intel, and Qualcomm announced its’ demise in November, 2020.

        So Microsoft is hitching Windows 11 to a hardware standard it renounced 6 months ago?  this just keeps getting better and better.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2374473
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        It can take a forklift to migrate to Linux, too.  I have no problem whatsoever navigating around a typical Linux desktop, but were I to think of a move to Linux, I’d have to consider: I need apps that replace the ones I use with Windows. So the apps are functionally equivalent to the ones in Windows.  What about data formats and data migration? I need training or some learning to use the Linux apps. Consider these Windows apps: Office, Acrobat Pro, PhotoShop, QuickBooks.  These are the typical ones used in an office environment and even in a home setting.  I can replace Office with LibreOffice, Acrobat Pro with what?, PhotoShop with GIMP and a whole learning process, QuickBooks with what? Moving to Linux gets dicey for me, and I cannot imagine some of my clients moving to Linux, not even the ones with a lot of computer knowledge. Windows 11 and Linux need different forklifts.

        I didn’t mean to suggest it would be cheap or easy and you’re correct that both would take a forklift.   But which forklift?  For some companies, the Windows 11 forklift is the lesser evil; for others, it will be the Linux forklift.

        And then there the 800-pound forklift: just keep on running Windows 10.   That may be the real wild card in this whole dust-up.

         

      • #2374474
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        Anything’s possible if you simply redefine the language to suit your business goals.

        I hadn’t noticed they had even bothered to redefine anything.

      • #2374479
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        (1) Would MS continue supporting, and for how long, Windows 10 after Windows 11 is finally released for regular home users and Enterprise ones? (2) When the Win 11 release happens, will it be possible to get extended Win 10 support, as was the case, first with XP and then with 7? (3) If the answer to (3) is YES”, how much would the extended support cost and for how long it may be available? (4) If the answer is NO, for those who have machines that cannot run Win 11, athough they can run Win 10 perfect… OK, at all, what will be the practical options to get out of the resulting fix without ditching PCs that are still 5 or so years young??

        1. Currently, Windows 10 is supported until mid-October 2025, regardless of Windows 11.
        2. Microsoft probably doesn’t even know this one.
        3. See #2
        4. Linux, but that brings a different and probably larger bucket of worms to the table.  Or scrap an otherwise perfectly good motherboard and CPU and replace them with Microsoft-blessed components.
      • #2374475
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        In practice, I think they might back off with requiring TPM to upgrade at some point after the initial marketing incentive to buy a new PC will have run its course with early adopters and they could just leave the requirement for new PCs. You could then run a diminished Windows 11 that couldn’t be certified for whatever security feature would be offered.

        Assuming Microsoft actually gives a tinker’s damn about its customers, particularly the multitude who are quite angry about this arbitrary diktat by Microsoft, this just might happen.   But I’m not holding my breath.

      • #2374481
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        A lot of people have been complaining about MS locking the taskbar to the bottom of the screen, especially people with wide monitors that want to maximize screen space.  Unsure if MS will still offer auto hide. Me, I have run my taskbar on the right side of the monitor with auto hide since forever and I also use Quick Launch.  Removal of support for this will keep me on Win10 or move me to Linux.

        Microsoft just told the world to scrap several hundred million computers in the next 4½ years.  Do you really suppose it gives a rat’s rump about your and your taskbar preferences (which are the same as mine, btw)?

      • #2374482
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        I think you are correct most especially for business and enterprise.  Many are woefully behind in updating equipment and very vulnerable.  But it is a very expensive process especially coming out of the current economic condition and I suspect that many small businesses will simply be unable to do much about new equipment for a while. On the personal front, many of us are lucky enough to be able to buy a new computer or two within a year but many more are not.  In my family we have several working computers which are running wonderfully and far from ready for a scrapheap so I am hoping that with security such a serious problem we can have some improvement in software to help mitigate the security issues. This was an informative article which I appreciate.  I have been reading about the security problems with older hardware other places so I understand this is a real issue which we must all address.

        How do you define “woefully behind in updating equipment”?  If the machines are still meeting the business’s needs, why should they spend money on new machines that really don’t add materially to anything, including security?   Yes, there have been some hardware hacks come to light recently, but the requirements to exploit them are so onerous that they are much more items of intellectual curiosity than real-world threats.

        If you live and travel in personal circles where it’s possible to buy a couple of computers a year, you are by no means even close to the mainstream.  Much more importantly, for most home users, Windows 11 is no reason to buy a new computer.  Nor do they really care that Windows 10 (as of 10/25) is no longer supported.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2374483
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        Your 4th generation i5 processor was released in 2014. That predates Windows 10 even. We have major security problems. We are under attack from foreign and domestic terrorists. Security is no longer an option. To continue to run old equipment is to be part of the problem. We decry that we need more security but then cry when the solution arrives.

        Your point is what, exactly?  Windows 10 also runs happily on Core 2 Dou CPUs and all the i-series CPUs since.  I have yet to read about a hardware vulnerability that is not so onerous to exploit that it is a real-world threat.  As a practical matter, they are intellectual curiosities, not threats.

        If you really think several hundred million computers are going to be scrapped just because you and Microsoft say so, you are sadly and badly mistaken.   These machines will be around as long as they get the work done that their users expect of them.   And Windows 10 will become the next version of Windows that will not die, following in the footsteps of Windows XP and Windows 7.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2374487
        Alex5723
        AskWoody Plus

        if you can cite any hardware-caused breaches

        Aren’t Meltdown and Specter inherit in CPUs hardware breaches?

      • #2374488
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        Aren’t Meltdown and Specter inherit in CPUs hardware breaches?

        Yes, and both can be mitigated by patches to the operating system.  That takes us right back to the base problem of almost security breaches: people and companies failing to keep their machines’ software fully patched.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2374490
        doriel
        AskWoody Lounger

        I always thought, that OS should be healthy, slim and secure and predictable environment for running applications, helping developpers around the world to deliver great experience and make our lifes easier.
        OK, lets assume, that not everybody can run Windows 11, its just for new devices. Im OK with that. But as we seen in the past, MSFT will force (or at least push hard) users to buy new devices and install new “operating system”.
        People started to debate about it and behold, now everybody is OK that new OS will arive, no matter what MSFT promised few years before.
        I dont mind that they develop so much. Moor’s law is still valid, isnt it? Its good thing to develop. But stepping on the pedal so hard?

        The leak was no coincidence and its just free PR to do it this way. You add some sentence like “New start menu will be more consistent” and here you go. New “service”, different looks means you have to pay once again. And to be honest Windows 10 and Office 365 looks hidious to me. To be honest I consider all this to be very “inconsistent”. Office 365 apps has like three or four window and dialog types. Does not look consistent to me at all. All over MSFT products, you can see the glue, that was used to make all this work.

        I wish enthusiasts to enjoy their brand new toy W11. but I also wish, that MSFT once will grow up and let users decide, what they really want.

        Dell Latitude E6530, Intel Core i5 @ 2.6 GHz, 4GB RAM, W10 20H2 Enterprise

        HAL3000, AMD Athlon 200GE @ 3,4 GHz, 8GB RAM, Fedora 29

        PRUSA i3 MK3S+

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2374492
        radosuaf
        AskWoody Lounger

        Installed the Insider Preview yesterday… Seems to be working fine, although I have non supported hardware (Skylake, but with TPM 2.0 and Windows Secure Boot enabled).

        WHY THEY REMOVED THE POSSIBILITY TO HAVE THE TASKBAR ON THE RIGHT IS BEYOND MY IMAGINATION

        MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i7-6700 * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Aorus Radeon RX 570 4GB * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * SanDisk Ultra 3D 1TB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 20H2 64-bit
        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2374499
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        WHY THEY REMOVED THE POSSIBILITY TO HAVE THE TASKBAR ON THE RIGHT IS BEYOND MY IMAGINATION

        No, it’s not your imagination that’s coming up short; it is Microsoft’s.  Either no one there could imagine why anyone would want to have the task bar on the right or, more likely, Microsoft was so focused on the monumental function benefit of centering the Start Button that it could not find a pleasing (TO IT) way of allowing the taskbar to be moved from the bottom of the screen.

        Very much like when Microsoft moved the search bar in Outlook from where millions of users had used it for many years to the program’s title bar.

        Put another way, Microsoft does not give a rat’s rump what users want if it does not fall in lockstep with how it thinks those users, who actually use and PAY FOR their products, actually want.

        3 users thanked author for this post.
        • #2374502
          radosuaf
          AskWoody Lounger

          Fully agree, hate the new Search bar as well. Why the telemetry then? It’s not a problem to check how many people move the taskbar to left/right/top. I see noi point in keeping in on the top/bottom on a widescreen monitor.

          MSI H110 PC MATE * Intel Core i7-6700 * 2 x 8 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2133 MHz * Aorus Radeon RX 570 4GB * Samsung 840 EVO 250GB SSD * SanDisk Ultra 3D 1TB SSD * Western Digital Blue 1TB HDD * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI * Windows 10 Pro 20H2 64-bit
      • #2374503
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        Fully agree, hate the new Search bar as well. Why the telemetry then? It’s not a problem to check how many people move the taskbar to left/right/top. I see noi point in keeping in on the top/bottom on a widescreen monitor.

        No, it probably isn’t but the real point is not that Microsoft does not know some people do this; it does not care that some people do this.

        • #2374507
          doriel
          AskWoody Lounger

          I learned one thing. In such large companies, as MSFT is, there is thick layer of management. And they are making descisions. Its designed that way, because they (maybe) analyzed output from telemetry, but the final descision is made by one or two persons. This person does not care what you want, he does not care what I want neither.
          The name Microsoft is impersonalized, but there are certain people, that are behind this descisions. And those people will never admit, that their descision MAY be bad. I mean, not everything “Microsoft” is bad, but we have to accept the fact, that not all people will be satisfied. Never.

          Dell Latitude E6530, Intel Core i5 @ 2.6 GHz, 4GB RAM, W10 20H2 Enterprise

          HAL3000, AMD Athlon 200GE @ 3,4 GHz, 8GB RAM, Fedora 29

          PRUSA i3 MK3S+

          • #2374729
            anonymous
            Guest

            true.

            i think in the end, its all about revenue.   Initially, it might be about the invention, new concepts and social change.  But eventually it becomes all about the money and making it without breaking the laws.

      • #2374509
        Alex5723
        AskWoody Plus

        Microsoft was so focused on the monumental function benefit of centering the Start Button

        Microsoft was focused on copying MacOS and Linux…

        • #2375113
          Microfix
          AskWoody MVP

          Microsoft was focused on copying MacOS and Linux…

          Microsoft IS focused on copying MacOS and Linux… FTFY

          Substituting a past tense expletive for ‘focused’ also fits the bill rather well IMHO

          | Quality over Quantity |
      • #2374510
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        I mean, not everything “Microsoft” is bad, but we have to accept the fact, that not all people will be satisfied. Never.

        You’re right about that but Microsoft seems to go out of its way to maximize that number.

        The surest way to anger people is to arbitrarily take things away, like moving the taskbar or the Search bar in Outlook without a convincing case of why doing it benefits the people who like such things left in place.

        2 users thanked author for this post.
        • #2374513
          doriel
          AskWoody Lounger

          The surest way to anger people is to arbitrarily take things away, like moving the taskbar or the Search bar in Outlook without a convincing case of why doing it benefits the people who like such things left in place.

          I think thats the price we pay for using their services. They dont need to put evidence why is Outlook search bar better on the top. IMHO its not a good change, but what can we do? They change it by update and over night, everybody has to live with that change. I repeatedly say, that such ammount of unnesscessary changes is not good for users. Its good for training AI, but its burdening users. And since there is no personal responsibility for damage caused by updates (just “oops, were workin on it..”), it wont change anytine soon.

          Enjoy W11 everyone, design looks quite impressing, but I think I will skip it. Im not the target user. And to be honest if there are still “good old control panels” beneath, I dont consider Windows 11 to be revolutionary, nor industry changing. This means they dont deserve the attention they get.

          Dell Latitude E6530, Intel Core i5 @ 2.6 GHz, 4GB RAM, W10 20H2 Enterprise

          HAL3000, AMD Athlon 200GE @ 3,4 GHz, 8GB RAM, Fedora 29

          PRUSA i3 MK3S+

      • #2374517
        Will Fastie
        Manager

        If you really think several hundred million computers are going to be scrapped just because you and Microsoft say so, you are sadly and badly mistaken.

        First, I think Amy is right about our tendency to ask for things and then complain when they arrive. It’s sort of a knee-jerk reaction when a company surprises us. In my article I wrote that I thought Microsoft was making the right decision even though it must have been difficult. Microsoft’s problem right now is that it isn’t explaining itself well.

        Second, I don’t think several hundred million computers are going to be scrapped, at least not tomorrow. Windows 10 has three or four years to run before end-of-support. It’s not going to vanish on the day Windows 11 becomes generally available. Should Microsoft have waited until October 2025 before doing this? We’ve been given notice, with ample time to make plans.

        2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2374519
        Will Fastie
        Manager

        UPDATE: Beware third-party utilities claiming to perform the functions Microsoft’s PC Health Check app was supposed to provide. They may be laced with poison. It’s an interesting and surely unintended consequence of Microsoft’s pulling its app.

        Thanks to Deanna McElveen for mentioning this to me; she is on the hunt for something safe.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2374861
          R
          AskWoody Plus

          Expect many more ‘tools’ of doubtful sources that claim to repair the Windows 11 start menu, go around the TPM-check, offer some kind of software emulated tpm (possible, but not from some shady website), magical tools that hide the real cpu for Windows or suppress the Windows check. Expect many adapted iso’s ready for download. They indeed will install 11 on any system. Including some free malware. Or if you’re really lucky and you did manage to grab a clean tweaked iso, it’ll stop working after the first round of Windows updates.

          All in all, this pushy behavior causes a counter movement of people that don’t want or can’t buy a new computer but still want to run Windows (11). And with that, Windows will become more insecure then ever before, albeit indirectly. Let’s hope I am not too negative here…

      • #2374516
        anonymous
        Guest
        The drones will be ‘testing and providing feedback’ on systems that do not represent the W11 environment.  And in one voice, they will all say it is the greatest Windows ever!

        “All Windows Insiders who have <b>already been installing builds from the Dev Channel on their PCs</b> up through June 24, 2021 will be allowed to continue installing Windows 11 Insider Preview builds even if their PC does not meet the minimum hardware requirements. ”

        Sheep with wool over their eyes.

      • #2374596
        Microfix
        AskWoody MVP

        Windows 11 on a Raspberry Pi4 anyone?
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7m2-XK2vmE

        | Quality over Quantity |
      • #2374598
        Alex5723
        AskWoody Plus

        Beware third-party utilities claiming to perform the functions Microsoft’s PC Health Check app was supposed to provide.

        Every 3rd party tool I use is better than anything Microsoft did or will ever develop.

        WhyNotWin11 is by far a better tool Microsoft’s PC Health Check app was (or will be).

        p.s Remember : Microsoft IS responsible for anything published on GitHub.

      • #2374608
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        Will Fastie wrote: Beware third-party utilities claiming to perform the functions Microsoft’s PC Health Check app was supposed to provide. Every 3rd party tool I use is better than anything Microsoft did or will ever develop. WhyNotWin11 is by far a better tool Microsoft’s PC Health Check app was (or will be). p.s Remember : Microsoft IS responsible for anything published on GitHub.

        So you claim, but what makes you think any third party knows better than Microsoft what it expects of hardware to run Windows 11?

        • #2374611
          anonymous
          Guest

          I tried that script i read around here “whynotwin11”  ( i think it was called).  It quickly and easily produced a little talley about my machine and what was considered wn11 ready.

          There was no harm by the script.   But it does have my eyebrows raising with how microsoft is again making an o.s., ie win11, and then forcing most manufacturers to again design machines for it.

          Didnt Microsoft get sued about this practice a while back?

           

          • #2374863
            R
            AskWoody Plus

            In the EU a new law is implemented that says hardware can’t be forcefully made obsolete if there are no very strong reasons for that. Windows 11 will create a wonderful time for lawyers, politicians, environmentalists etc. Also the included Teams will be a legal problem, just as other added software that violently tried to annihilate the competition. The browser wars from yesteryear now seem to have moved towards the more lucrative telepresence software. Quite sure that the legal teams of Zoom & go are sharpening their knives already.

      • #2374609
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        The only thing that seems plausible is that either they wish to exit the OS market and concentrate on the cloud

        Actually, that makes no sense at all.  If not Windows, what will run all the cloud stuff you find so wonderful?

        • #2374625
          R
          AskWoody Plus

          99.9% of ‘the cloud stuff’ doesn’t run on Windows machines.

      • #2374614
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        MHCLV941 wrote: If you really think several hundred million computers are going to be scrapped just because you and Microsoft say so, you are sadly and badly mistaken. First, I think Amy is right about our tendency to ask for things and then complain when they arrive. It’s sort of a knee-jerk reaction when a company surprises us. In my article I wrote that I thought Microsoft was making the right decision even though it must have been difficult. Microsoft’s problem right now is that it isn’t explaining itself well. Second, I don’t think several hundred million computers are going to be scrapped, at least not tomorrow. Windows 10 has three or four years to run before end-of-support. It’s not going to vanish on the day Windows 11 becomes generally available. Should Microsoft have waited until October 2025 before doing this? We’ve been given notice, with ample time to make plans.

        No, all those machines are not going to get scrapped today or even tomorrow, but many, many more of them will be scrapped because of Microsoft’s insistence on new hardware than would have been otherwise.   The thing too many “enthusiasts” (for want of a better word) forget is that most users, corporate or home, don’t need a new or even recent machine to do what they need to do.

        So what if a machine is 3, 4, 5, 6 years old or older?   If if the machine waits on the user and the user does not wait on it, it’s just fine.  In this sense, the solid-state drive may be the worst thing that’s happened to OEMs in a long time.  Why? because for more or less $50, you can make an old machine feel as fast as a new one running the software that most people run.

        At that, Windows 10 is going to become the next version of Windows that will not die because a lot of those computers will belong to people and companies that can’t – or won’t – junk them simply because Windows 10 has hit end-of-support.   For however much security good Microsoft thinks it’s doing with its demand for new hardware, it may be doing as much or more harm by foreclosing a way for those machines to continue using a supported operating system.

        PS: Since Microsoft has stated it can waive at least some of the particularly onerous hardware requirements for OEMs,  it means Windows 11 will run on machines that already exist but don’t fill all the squares.  It just chooses, at least for now, not to allow them t0.

         

        2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2374624
        R
        AskWoody Plus

        Red your article and agree with everything. Except with your thumbs up for the TPM. No single home user nor many business users ever needed one. Unless you are interested in fancy stuff as logging in via a fingerprint or face scan. Bitlocker is also not used on a wide scale and should ‘t be used like that either. Windows isn’t the OS to use with sensitive data in the first place, but besides that: there were many troubles with Bitlocker in the past years during updates and upgrades. Sensitive and irreplaceable data should never be stored on internal storage of any Windows computer. Never. Use a hardware encrypted USB-stick, or external drive. Or – of course – an encrypted NAS share or other (own) encrypted cloud service. It’s what most companies do for the last few decades: centrally managed and stored data. In safe data centers on servers NOT running Windows.

        What Microsoft doesn’t seem (or want) to understand is that ‘computing’ changed dramatically, especially the past decade. A computer is much more a terminal nowadays, it needs a stable OS and a secure browser. For that, there are other solutions than TPM’s. Nothing against a TPM by the way, but making it a must have is utterly nonsense. Especially if that means all cpu’s from about before 2019 will be considered useless as a result of that.

        Somehow, I can’t suppress the feeling that Intel had a hand in this panic announcement of Windows 11 too. Their cpu-architecture was hammered by bugs and security problems the last few years. Updating microcode helps, but it’s an expensive burden to maintain. Most people don’t notice any performance difference between – let’s say – an i5 of 10 years ago and an i5 sold today. So dumping all those systems – even if only a few years old – solves a lot of troubles for them. What they don’t realize is that customers – consumers and businesses alike – will not share this vision at all, of course.

        Personally I am not an environmentalist, too inconsequent for that. But I do try to use hardware as long as possible. Or rather: using them as long as they feel speedy enough for the tasks I expect them to do. Most 10 year or even older high end pc’s, ultrabooks etc, are far above the specs – even today – for running things like Office, browsing, playing media etc. In other words, what’s wrong in matter of speed with an i7 laptop with 16 GB ram and an upgraded SSD of 512 GB or 1 TB (yes, harddisks are replaceable with SSD’s so make use of that)? Indeed: nothing. Windows 11 will cause a huge environmental problem in the form of perfectly capable hardware dumped on the electronic junkyards. Add to that the fact we have a lasting problem regarding the availability of production capacity for chips. Which brings me to the conclusion, that the timing of (at least the announcement of) Windows 11 is something to be ashamed of.

        I didn’t read or hear anything positive about 11. Neither privately nor in companies. Only irritation and shaking heads. That’s what Windows became: an outdated source of annoyance. I do not understand why people keep using Windows. Home users already discovered there are other ways. Educational institutes never look at alternatives, because of dirty deals made by Microsoft and governments. The same goes for large companies. The future is not based on workstations running software locally. The shift to browser based software is on full steam. Mainly Microsoft refuses to adapt its Office – just to mention an example – in such a way that it runs with all (or at least most) bells and whistles as we know from the locally installed software. Technically that wouldn’t be a problem. They just don’t want, old school selling software packages is their style. Weird, because there is no future in that.

        Will businesses finally wake up, realizing that Windows 11 and follow-up versions will be costly adventures because hardware needs to be replaced at a very high pace? Or will they also accept this holding grip of a monopolist pur sang? Interesting times for sure…

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        • #2374726
          anonymous
          Guest

          Most businesses could very well run Win XP to manage the operations.  But the other software needed for a business, wont run on XP anymore.   Businesses, like us regular folks, are forced to upgrade.  We are like a digital herd of cattle but with money to throw away at the greedy company’s.

          Regardless, Win10 is making money for M$ because its suspected of being a fancy spyware, tracking our digital foot prints and keyboard key strokes.

          We can only imagine what Win11 will accomplish that Win10 is unable to do.  And it isnt for “our” benefit either.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
          R
          • #2374865
            R
            AskWoody Plus

            Maybe finally ALL consumers – business and home – up…

      • #2374626
        R
        AskWoody Plus

        My long post disappeared after making an edit *sniff*

        • #2374628
          PFC
          AskWoody Plus

          been there, done that.

          now before an edit, I copy/paste to notepad (just in case)

          1 user thanked author for this post.
          R
        • #2374638
          Susan Bradley
          Manager

          Found it.  The AI overlords think you are spamming and thus put in the spam filter.  Sorry about that.

          Susan Bradley Patch Lady

          2 users thanked author for this post.
          • #2374662
            R
            AskWoody Plus

            If I wouldn’t be happily married I’d ask you to become my wife, thanks!!!

          • #2374664
            R
            AskWoody Plus

            Btw: why wasn’t it also listed in my overview of posts (in my profile I mean)…? 🤔

      • #2374629
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        My gut-level response to this is that Microsoft would just as well see the Home edition vanish.

        I wonder if anyone but OEMs (who make either save money including the cheaper version or make money by including the upgrade) would shed even a sniffle, let alone an entire tear, if Home vanished later this afternoon.

        Indeed, Microsoft has no problem declaring the great bulk of computers obsolete so why a little thing like dropping a SKU would give it any pause at all.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        R
      • #2374631
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        My long post disappeared after making an edit *sniff*

        But I got it in a message:

        <hr />

         

        <hr />

         

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        R
        • #2374667
          R
          AskWoody Plus

          Ah yes, it arrived complete I see… 😁 Anyway, thanks to the Supreme Wizard all came back! So problem solved.

      • #2374634
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        My long post disappeared after making an edit *sniff*

        It did get sent out via email to those who subscribed to this topic.   I’d send it to you but “R” is not a valid handle for a direct message….

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        R
      • #2374639
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        Found it.  The AI overlords think you are spamming and thus put in the spam filter.  Sorry about that.

        Hey, wait!   I thought it was benevolent overloads…..

      • #2374640
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        Will businesses finally wake up, realizing that Windows 11 and follow-up versions will be costly adventures because hardware needs to be replaced at a very high pace? Or will they also accept this holding grip of a monopolist pur sang? Interesting times for sure…

        There are many good thoughts in your post, many of which I agree with, but I think you overestimate corporate interest in “the future”.

        In answer to your question, they will get right on this right after they finish up “the paperless office”.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
        R
        • #2374668
          R
          AskWoody Plus

          That might take some months, some offices still use clay tablets I noticed.

      • #2374686
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        And the list goes on.  The point is that TPM made the headlines as a “requirement for Win11” and therefor for the masses and that has upset a lot of people because it makes for a lot of obsolete equipment.

        There’s a point that seems to been lost which bears directly on the TPM “mandate”. Microsoft itself has said that it will waive the TPM requirement for OEMs that ask for it. This says directly that TPM is not required for Windows 11, which makes Microsoft’s diktat nothing more than arbitrary and arrogant.

        2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2374700
        Alex5723
        AskWoody Plus

        Will Fastie wrote: Beware third-party utilities claiming to perform the functions Microsoft’s PC Health Check app was supposed to provide. Every 3rd party tool I use is better than anything Microsoft did or will ever develop. WhyNotWin11 is by far a better tool Microsoft’s PC Health Check app was (or will be). p.s Remember : Microsoft IS responsible for anything published on GitHub.

        So you claim, but what makes you think any third party knows better than Microsoft what it expects of hardware to run Windows 11?

        WhyNotWin11 updates with every W11 minimum requirement changes.
        Latest update v2.3.0.1

      • #2374701
        Alex5723
        AskWoody Plus

        what will run all the cloud stuff you find so wonderful?

        Linux runs all the cloud stuff.

      • #2374715
        Carl D
        AskWoody Lounger

        Sorry, I couldn’t resist.

        Found on another forum 🙂

        At the moment, neither of my 2 PC’s will be able to use Windows 11 – they have 4th and 7th Generation processors. But, my little Lenovo laptop which I bought a month ago with a Celeron N4020 CPU should be able to.

        TqNU3t4

        Gigabyte GA-B250M-D3H Motherboard, Intel i5-7600 CPU, 32GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1065 Graphics Card, 1x Samsung 870 EVO 250GB SSD, 1x Samsung 860 EVO 250GB SSD, Windows 10 Professional 21H1 64bit.

        4 users thanked author for this post.
        • #2374722
          doriel
          AskWoody Lounger

          Thanks for a little bit of humor 🙂

          <humour>
          I think maybe everybody misunderstood what TPM stands for. What TPM really is? You can check here.
          </humor>

          Dell Latitude E6530, Intel Core i5 @ 2.6 GHz, 4GB RAM, W10 20H2 Enterprise

          HAL3000, AMD Athlon 200GE @ 3,4 GHz, 8GB RAM, Fedora 29

          PRUSA i3 MK3S+

          2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2374797
        NoLoki
        AskWoody Lounger

        I assume that the Dual Boot environment will be an issue until these W11 prerequisites get  cast in concrete.  Some users have multiple Windows versions (dual, triple boot) while others go for a Windows/Linux combination  – I expect the latter has a larger install base.

        Staying with W10 as the base would obviously not be of concern when it comes to dual boot on older systems but with W11 that is not the case. W11 will not install on a non-compliant, non-dev system ( FWWK), so W11 can not be the base for a dual boot system.

        TPM 2 seems to be getting the most attention.  In dual boot, that may get turned off. Anyone know?

        • #2375196
          NoLoki
          AskWoody Lounger

          Update:  came across a person online who has multiple OS’s installed on one  system – all have one Windows plus several Linux versions.  The one with W10 got upgraded to W11 this week, even though the computer is not W11 compliant (no TPM 2). I see later in his blog that it was the Insiders version that he pulled down. So, this at least proves that the Insiders can test W11 without the chip.  This user says that he has no intention of installing a hardware chip for TPM, so I’ll watch his site for any developments over the next 6 months.

      • #2374833
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        You can say or think whatever you want about Apple, but they manage to switch complete processor architectures without a hiccup.

        I’m not so sure it was anything Apple intentionally did when it announced the M1 chip or the past move to Intel and it is a different world as it Apple rather than Microsoft.

        Apple is a closed environment.  An Apple person does not have any choices:  Apple or nothing so its users are “born” with the mindset that Cupertino is the fount of a that’s good in the world.  The Windows world is equally in thrall to Redmond, but the sheer diversity of the Windows environment masks this to a large extent.

        Apple users, home and business, are probably more well-heeled than Windows ones.  Apple gear pricing starts about where high-end Windows gear starts.   It’s not so much that Apple people don’t care about money as much as it is that they are more likely to have it to spend.

        Windows has had a much slower evolution than MACOS with new versions years farther part than MACOS versions.  Also, Apple does not have a hard end-of-life for the MACOS versions.  Support is the current version plus two back.

        Apple has a track record of making hardware obsolete much more frequently than Microsoft has (Windows 11 may be the first time it’s done it so blatantly) but it does so more gently, and never has it done it do relatively new hardware.  This may be the single biggest reason for angst and anger over Windows 11.

        • #2374859
          R
          AskWoody Plus

          I don’t agree here. Under the hood, macOS is Unix. A user is free to disable the ‘walled garden’ and install software from any source and location. Hardware support isn’t much of a problem either nowadays anymore. Modern hardware often works driverless on any platform. I use – just an example – a Brother laserprinter from 2005, no problem. USB C and Thunderbird (+macOS of course) is compatible with virtually any hardware that connects to it. Most hardware manufacturers offer accompanying software for both Windows and Mac, as well as Linux. Don’t forget that most users don’t need to connect all kinds of exotic hardware to their computers anymore. Fifteen…twenty years ago that was different. Webcams weren’t built in, for video editing weird hardware was a requirement etc. Things are much more standardized now.

          Regarding prices: a midrange Windows laptop costs somewhere between €900 and €1500 incl VAT. High-end laptops much, much more. An M1 macBook Air you buy for around €1200…€14xx. An iMac with M1 costs depending on the configuration somewhere between  €1500…€2000. Yes, that’s cheaper than a €600…€700 pc. HOWEVER, in that case you score only the pc. Add a 4K screen, a video card capable of driving that fast enough etc and the price goes up rapidly.

          Also included in the price of these Mac’s is extremely good local support in your own language, good service and so on. These are things you also have to take in consideration when looking at a price tag. In case of Windows it is: ok, tnx for your purchase and now you’re on your own, even if you paid €3000 or more (!!!) for a Surface device. If you want a bit more then ‘help’ from an Indian sweatshop producing standard useless answers and impolite interactions, you can order a Microsoft service contract. For small businesses and individuals way too expensive.

          You can’t compare both ecosystems one on one, not on netto price alone.

          2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2374836
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        Thanks for a little bit of humor 🙂

        <humour>
        I think maybe everybody misunderstood what TPM stands for. What TPM really is? You can check here.
        </humor>

        Perhaps the most insightful observation in this entire thread.

      • #2374851
        Will Fastie
        Manager

        … but it [Apple] does so more gently, and never has it done it do relatively new hardware.

        Apple bricked my old MacMini very quickly. Things just seem gentle because, with complete control over the hardware and software, Apple can release a new version of MacOS along with hardware that has new requirements while retaining backwards compatibility for a time. But eventually Macs hit the wall, too, and with much greater frequency than Microsoft has done.

        Microsoft has been the king of backwards compatibility, until now. Or, to be completely accurate, until October 2025.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2374853
        R
        AskWoody Plus

        So that must have been the 2006 model. The Mac Mini’s from 2014 and later all run Big Sur. I think a 2006 model not supporting a 2020 OS is not unreasonable, in all honesty…

      • #2374864
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        with much greater frequency than Microsoft has done.

        Exactly as I stated in my original post: it’s a MUCH bigger fact of life in the Apple world than in the Windows world.   Like it or not, if you do Apple, this is part of the experience.  In the Windows world, it happens so infreqently that many people have never seen it before and others – like me – have forgotten.

        Historically, what has driven old Windows-based hardware to the recycler has not been that Windows won’t run on it as new hardware has been so much faster, the productivity gain made the expense seem worth it.    This has not been true for a long time, though.  Even Core 2 Duo machines that shipped with Windows XP will run Windows 10 well enough t be useful to many users,  No, it won’t play FortCrack or whatever game but neither do most people.   Yes, you need to bump the memory up to 4GB or better and toss in a $50 SSD, but that’s a lot less expensive than getting a new Windows machine.

        In a sense, Microsoft is the victim of its success at making Windows run on just about any WinTel machine that will still power up.  Now, in a complete 180, it’s saying that even some new hardware, let alone older machines that otherwise could handle Windows 11, are obsolete.

        • #2374868
          R
          AskWoody Plus

          Also, as I wrote already here somewhere, nowadays you’re not ‘locked in’ macOS and Apple’s world anymore. I didn’t have a single second regret that some years ago I moved to Mac’s. And I don’t feel part of a cult, don’t feel any need to suddenly visit a barbershop or whatever. For now, there are even Windows computers, mostly used for (hardware) experiments like microcontrollers, Raspberry Pi and other projects. Every single of these tasks could be done by a Mac too, but since these Windows things stand here anyway. I also work with Linux, to a lesser degree. No problems with that either.

          Don’t hate Windows for being Windows. But yes, I started to strongly dislike it because of its unreliable updates, instability and pushy behavior of Microsoft. Big chance 11 will never run here. Or it must be on an ancient Atom-board that for some weird reason seems to be supported, just to play a bit around with it.

      • #2374869
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        I don’t agree here. Under the hood, macOS is Unix. A user is free to disable the ‘walled garden’ and install software from any source and location. Hardware support isn’t much of a problem either nowadays anymore. Modern hardware often works driverless on any platform. I use – just an example – a Brother laserprinter from 2005, no problem. USB C and Thunderbird (+macOS of course) is compatible with virtually any hardware that connects to it. Most hardware manufacturers offer accompanying software for both Windows and Mac, as well as Linux. Don’t forget that most users don’t need to connect all kinds of exotic hardware to their computers anymore. Fifteen…twenty years ago that was different. Webcams weren’t built in, for video editing weird hardware was a requirement etc. Things are much more standardized now.

        Regarding prices: a midrange Windows laptop costs somewhere between €900 and €1500 incl VAT. High-end laptops much, much more. An M1 macBook Air you buy for around €1200…€14xx. An iMac with M1 costs depending on the configuration somewhere between  €1500…€2000. Yes, that’s cheaper than a €600…€700 pc. HOWEVER, in that case you score only the pc. Add a 4K screen, a video card capable of driving that fast enough etc and the price goes up rapidly.

        Also included in the price of these Mac’s is extremely good local support in your own language, good service and so on. These are things you also have to take in consideration when looking at a price tag. In case of Windows it is: ok, tnx for your purchase and now you’re on your own, even if you paid €3000 or more (!!!) for a Surface device. If you want a bit more then ‘help’ from an Indian sweatshop producing standard useless answers and impolite interactions, you can order a Microsoft service contract. For small businesses and individuals way too expensive.

        You can’t compare both ecosystems one on one, not on netto price alone.

        I don’t pay for things in Euros; I use US dollars.  And that makes a difference.

        €900 ($1067) is a very nice laptop in the USA.   Midrange laptops (HP 15.6″ HD Laptop – 11th Generation Core i3-1115G4 – 4GB RAM – 256GB SSD) are readily available here for about half that amount.  Low-end laptops can be had for half to that, around $275.

        No, one does not get the hand-holding that Apple wants people to think it offers, but that’s never been my experience with anything Apple, hardware or software.   Of course, it’s more than possible that Apple’s support in Euro-land is better than it is on dollar-land.

        • #2374882
          R
          AskWoody Plus

          Keep in mind, that in the US all prices are without VAT, no environmental taxes, no storage taxes (everything that stores data must be paid a ‘fine’ over because one COULD store copyrighted audio or video on it, some weird law dating from the VHS era…) etc.

      • #2374872
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        pushy behavior of Microsoft

        How is that worse than Apple’s “we’re so cool we don’t care what you think.  Take what we feel like selling you or buzz off”?  Not to mention the “we don’t get viruses” lie?

        • #2374884
          R
          AskWoody Plus

          Still, they don’t push me on a new OS, the former ones are supported 2…3 years more. I have – of course – also the free choice to buy Apple hardware or not. The thing is, that all the software I use is also available for macOS. I don’t care about coolness, I want a computer that just works. I also don’t care about all the virus yes/no discussions. Every OS will be vulnerable to malware somehow. But in macOS you must really work hard and click through many warnings to be able to install malware. Despite that, as a former Windows user of course I installed a virus scanner. Don’t care if the sectarian fanboyz tell me that ain’t necessary. My system, my choice. And Microsoft gives me less and less choices. If they would have told potential Win 11 users that they CAN install 11 without TPM and/or an ‘older’ CPU, but then they’ll miss out on ‘great’ features like Hello or Bitlocker: no one would have complained. IF they would have offered people a choice between the classic and ‘latest and greatest’ new user interface: no one would have complained. IF, IF, IF. It’s all about free choice.

          1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #2374887
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        Keep in mind, that in the US all prices are without VAT, no environmental taxes, no storage taxes (everything that stores data must be paid a ‘fine’ over because one COULD store copyrighted audio or video on it, some weird law dating from the VHS era…) etc.

        You have your bureaucracy to deal with and I have mine.   It does not matter WHY a machine costs nearly $1100.  It could cost $1.00 and have $1099 in taxes, fees, surcharges, supplemental charges, franchise fees, etc., etc. or it cost $1100 “duty-free” with none of those things.  Either way, your wallet is still $1100 lighter.

        It also means that your price comparison, which purports to show that Windows and Apple laptops cost more or less the same, only makes sense in Europe and elsewhere with similar governmental revenue generators in place, not in the USA, where the only add-on is sales tax.

        • #2374945
          doriel
          AskWoody Lounger

          In Europe (czechia), we pay like 1 USD “recyclyng tax” with every purchase of electronics. No matter if you buy 1100USD device, od 25USD device. Its the same ammount of money. That does not make a difference at all. And to be honest I dont know where those money land..

          I would like to add bottom line to this discussion. All this we are discusting (new operating system >> new HW) should not happen by my opinion. There are still part of the world (like 65% lets say) where people are not aware, that Windows exist. They dont care about it, because they lack drinking water and other important things.

          The limit of poverty is set for one dollar and 50 cents per day and still, two thirds of the planet does not reach this income. Please think about this. I dont think we can save everybody from starving, but we should not waste our resources – and thats exactly whats happening right now. We forgot about real problems, supplementing them with transition from Windows 10 to Windows 11.

          You can say Im utopist, that everybody cannot have the same ammount of money (thats communism, right?), but whats the point of having like 99% wealth distributed in 10% of population? I dont think everybody must have same things, but modesty is the way.

          Thats why I like to make old HW work again. Thats why I help people save money by buying older computers and install GNU/Linux on this – because it works the way it is and its not wasting our time and money.
          I really like helping people, unfortunatelly I cant build a well for everybody. That should be moral duty of those rich companies/ones, that even dare to bother us on daily basis with pushing us into buying shiny new things. My opinion, you may disagree.

          Dell Latitude E6530, Intel Core i5 @ 2.6 GHz, 4GB RAM, W10 20H2 Enterprise

          HAL3000, AMD Athlon 200GE @ 3,4 GHz, 8GB RAM, Fedora 29

          PRUSA i3 MK3S+

          1 user thanked author for this post.
          • #2374957
            R
            AskWoody Plus

            Also – besides the 65% really poor people – also in our western world we have a large percentage of people with low incomes. They have children that need a laptop or PC for school work. Many use old systems, often bought second hand. They don’t have the cash at hand to buy a new computer with every OS-fart that escapes from Microsoft. Many of these people chose Windows because of its long term hardware support. Now, they will not trust on that anymore and start looking for alternatives. That might be Linux on their old hardware and thus extend its life for 5…10 years. Or they go for a Chromebook, tablet etc. This shift was going on already at the home and educational markets, it will only speed up.

            For people like you, it means you have only more ways to extend the life of any computer, this time not only beyond time but also beyond Windows. The same will happen in smaller businesses and the like.

        • #2374951
          R
          AskWoody Plus

          In fact: who cares. If you are willing to pay for a new Windows computer ONLY because Microsoft artificially made systems made before 2019 obsolete: of course feel free to do so. Also, check the prices of a Surface laptop. Indeed: the ones of about 3 years ‘old’ that will not be able to run Windows 11 anymore. If you agree with all that, feel free to stay on the Windows train. I decided to jump off and chose my own way. Since I have to work with specific Microsoft Office templates (not my choice) the only option was Mac. Microsoft doesn’t understand that if they’d create a Linux-version of Office 365, they would earn at least the same but in the end much more. EVEN if all Windows users would immediately dump Windows and switch to Linux. It’s all a matter of perspective and free choice. It’s not about Apple or Microsoft or any other biggy being a holy saint. It’s about MY choice (and choices of others). Under the line, I have to be able to work in an as stable and distraction free as possible environment. For me and many people around me Windows is more and more a source of distraction and instability. As said: if YOU are happy with it and you want to keep paying for ridiculous decisions and limitations of Microsoft of course that’s fine with me. I also realize that many people will buy a laptop, deduct it from taxes and don’t care at all.

      • #2374905
        Alex5723
        AskWoody Plus

        But eventually Macs hit the wall, too, and with much greater frequency than Microsoft has done.

        Apple Adds 2015 12-Inch Retina MacBook to Vintage Products List

        That’s 6 years of support.

        For most vintage products, the designation means that they’re no longer eligible for repairs at the Genius Bar or from Apple Authorized Service Providers, but Apple does offer extended repairs of select vintage products

        • #2374954
          R
          AskWoody Plus

          BUT it still runs a current OS, which will be supported for the next 2…4 years onwards. 8…9 years for a laptop isn’t that bad. In fact – to be really honest – this Macbook will run the new macOS Monterey too, which will be released later this year. So, that will make it useable for at least 9…10 years. The only ‘vintage’ is that Apple decided to stop giving support at its genius bar and things alike. After SIX years. Most other laptop manufacturers give up after half a year.

      • #2374989
        anonymous
        Guest

        In Europe (czechia), we pay like 1 USD “recyclyng tax” with every purchase of electronics. No matter if you buy 1100USD device, od 25USD device. Its the same ammount of money. That does not make a difference at all. And to be honest I dont know where those money land..

        I would like to add bottom line to this discussion. All this we are discusting (new operating system >> new HW) should not happen by my opinion. There are still part of the world (like 65% lets say) where people are not aware, that Windows exist. They dont care about it, because they lack drinking water and other important things.

        The limit of poverty is set for one dollar and 50 cents per day and still, two thirds of the planet does not reach this income. Please think about this. I dont think we can save everybody from starving, but we should not waste our resources – and thats exactly whats happening right now. We forgot about real problems, supplementing them with transition from Windows 10 to Windows 11.

        You can say Im utopist, that everybody cannot have the same ammount of money (thats communism, right?), but whats the point of having like 99% wealth distributed in 10% of population? I dont think everybody must have same things, but modesty is the way.

        Thats why I like to make old HW work again. Thats why I help people save money by buying older computers and install GNU/Linux on this – because it works the way it is and its not wasting our time and money.
        I really like helping people, unfortunatelly I cant build a well for everybody. That should be moral duty of those rich companies/ones, that even dare to bother us on daily basis with pushing us into buying shiny new things. My opinion, you may disagree.

        Doriel, I agree with almost everything you wrote, and I thank you for bringing those valid points to a discussion like this one.

        ButI disagree strongly with your penultimate sentence in which you impute responsibility for digging the needed wells to “rich companies.” If one or more of them would do that, I’d be impressed and happy for them and the world. But we live in democracies with, for most of us, centuries-long respect for property rights and the right of a person to retain and control the fruits of his labor. To me it’s the height of arrogance to proclaim that someone other than yourself has a “responsibility” to do what you decide they should do.

        • #2375106
          doriel
          AskWoody Lounger

          To me it’s the height of arrogance to proclaim that someone other than yourself has a “responsibility” to do what you decide they should do.

          I apologize for my arrogance, but I consider myself as very empathic, so I also think about other people. I have no such resources to build well for everyone, because I am not narcist or sociopath, who are the richest people today, they dont care about others, thats why they have so much resources.
          By your angle of view, Microsoft and other tech giants are also arrogant, because they force us to do what they think we should do. Thats how we have been treated for several years now.
          Nothing personal. Thank you for your feedback.

          Dell Latitude E6530, Intel Core i5 @ 2.6 GHz, 4GB RAM, W10 20H2 Enterprise

          HAL3000, AMD Athlon 200GE @ 3,4 GHz, 8GB RAM, Fedora 29

          PRUSA i3 MK3S+

      • #2375095
        Tom
        AskWoody Plus

        Well, apparently Windows 11 runs on a Raspberry Pi and an old Lumia Phone.

        https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/30/windows_11_pi/

      • #2375111
        MHCLV941
        AskWoody Plus

        Well, apparently Windows 11 runs on a Raspberry Pi and an old Lumia Phone.

        https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/30/windows_11_pi/

        It just proves that Microsoft’s draconian hardware diktats are just that.  Arbitrary choices it has made with no regard for the impact on customers or users, save the OEMs which – might – get a sales boost.    There is no functional reason why those diktats are necessary to the OS’s running.

        2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #2376460
        bbearren
        AskWoody MVP

        Why this? Why now? And what the heck is going on?

        Microsoft is going on, as usual.  Which has been the driving force behind my couple of decades of tinkerin’ with Windows’ guts.  I don’t necessarily want or need some of the “Features” Microsoft puts into each iteration of Windows, particularly those that get kinda between me and what I’m trying to do on the platform.

        So I figure out how to turn it back into a platform that doesn’t get in my way. Windows 11? Waaaay to early to waste any time with. Hardware requirements? That won’t really mean anything until RTM, and they very likely will change between now and then.

        Last Saturday (July 3) I downloaded the Insiders Preview, and tried an in-place upgrade on the B side of my dual boot. “No TPM”, can’t run Windows 11. I did some registry implanting, some tinkerin’ with the Windows 11 installation media, tried the in-place upgrade again. This time I got an offer for an upgrade that kept no files or settings (my B side configuration is not-at-all supported by Microsoft). The upgrade went smoothly.

        I kicked the tires, drove it around the block a couple of times, saw a few things that I will rip out when/if I finally decide to do a for-real upgrade to Windows 11.  I installed StartIsBack++ and it worked, but the centered Menu didn’t go away.  Then I restored my B side drive image and wiped it out. Come fall, I’ll go with 21H2, and then probably 22H1 next spring, and wait for Windows 11 to get whipped into shape before I’ll try it again. But Windows 11 still has a registry, so hardware won’t particularly be an issue. I can figure out how to get from here to there; I’ve done it with all the other Windows versions.

        Create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates, in case you need to start over!
        "When you're troubleshooting, start with the simple and proceed to the complex."—M.O. Johns
        "Experience is what you get when you're looking for something else."—Sir Thomas Robert Deware

      • #2378141
        anonymous
        Guest

        Eve if I’m only 66 I hate starting all over again so often so I’ll just show the recycling bin to what I have left of MS Win10 and definitely move on to Mac ! I have remained with MS since 1992 but all the changes for the pas 7-10 years convince me to let go !

      • #2378142
        anonymous
        Guest

        I will nevertheless continue reading AskWoody for life ! 🙂 Jhulio

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