“Access denied” Why wasn’t this fixed in Win 7 ?

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In Windows XP, when you wanted to do something with a file or folder, you sometimes got the message thatthat was impossible because it was being used by another program, butdidn’t tell you what to do about it. In Windows Vista, theusers/security/permissions/ownership organization was worse and in Windows 7 it looks uncomfortably similar to that of Vista.

In my user folder I want to delete a folder in the Local Settings folder. After insistance from mypart Windows would finally admit that there is such a folder and it shows as a shortcut icon. When I try to open it I get
“C:UsersFrankLocal Settings is not accessible.
Access is denied.”

In properties of that folder there are 4 group or usernames,
– Everyone
– SYSTEM
– Frank (Frank-PCFrank)
– Administrators(Frank-PCAdministrators)
Who of those represents me, I don’t know. I suspect either the third or fourth.

Except for ‘Everyone’ it seems they should have full control (but no special permissions) and except for’Everyone’ permissions are greyed out so that they can’t be changed.Apparently SYSTEM was owner of the folder, so I changed that toAdministrators (Frank-PCAdministrators), which didn’t help and I can’t change ownership back to SYSTEM. I mad Frank-PCFrank owner,but that didn’t help either. I tried giving permissions to ‘Everyone’, but Windows clearly disliked that.

Apparently there is a program called ‘Lockhunter’, but a locked folder is supposed to be acomompanied by alock icon, so I din’t try that. The folder C:/Users/Frankis locked though. I meddled a bit with the properties of that folder,to no avail, but I didn’t change it’s ownership (SYSTEM is the owner) because I wouldn’t know how to undo the change.

I disabled User Account Control, but that didn’t help either. So I reenabled it.

I tried the following advice fromandy103 from another forum :
“You could try the following steps A ” > ” indicates Next Start > Control Panel >System & Security > Administrative Tools > Local SecurityPolicy Click Local Policies > User Rights Assignment look for the policy “Take ownership of files and other objects” Doubleclick the policy Click “Add user or Group” Enter your username > Check Names Click “OK” twice Close al lwindows until you are back at the desktop Navigate to “Run”Start > All Programs > Accesories > Run Type without quotes”gpupdate” It should work now”
I could follow the instructions, but it didn’t help.

In the thread forums.anandtech.com/showthread/?t=259880 ThePCDoc made a suggestion that worked. Apparently if you dig deep enough in thesecurity settings of a folder, you may find that ‘Everyone’ is denied read/write permission and that denial supercedes the permissions the user has. But how then can ‘SYSTEM’ read and write to that folder if that is the case ?

I don’t see why it is said that Windows 7 is better than Vista. It seems to be plagued with about the same problems. This problem already existed in Vista. Why wasn’t it fixed? Windows 7 is a disappointment so far.

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… but I didn’t change it’s ownership (SYSTEM is the owner) because I wouldn’t know how to undo the change.

Not sure why you would care about being unable to undo that if you had already decided that this is a folder which you need to delete.

Bruce

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This is not a problem or failure with Win 7. The Local Settings folder is not actually a folder but a junction pointfor legacy apps. You can Google Junction Points to read about them. All the folders with what appear to be shortcut arrows on them are not users accesible because they are not folders and are only accesible by the system when older legacy apps have to access the system, or something like that.

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You have changed the View settings to display protected operating system files. In Windows 7 “Local Settings” is a junction point not a shortcut and is a protected operating system file. It is there only for compatability with older programs that are not aware of the folder structure changes in Windows 7. For a particular user the path is C:UsersusernameAppdataLocal. See post #21 in http://windowssecrets.com/forums/showthread//132238-User’s-folder-structure-in-wrong-place?highlight=user+profiles for a document that may help explain the Windows 7 folder structure.

Joe

--Joe

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Here’s a link on junction points. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb968829(v=vs.85).aspx

Early-on I was told by loungers here NOT to delete any folders I couldn’t get in to — if I happened to be able to get into them.

I do understand about worrying that you can’t undo a change you make – for instance if you “take ownership” of a folder so you can get into it and look around, and decide later that maybe that was something you shouldn’t have done and you want to give the ownership back (that is, no longer “own” it), you are afraid you won’t be able to do that. I feel the same way about making changes when it comes to this “policy” stuff which rules who can do what with what folder.

At any rate, no matter what happens, if a folder is inaccessible to you now, it is not a folder you can dare to delete. This is true even if you *think* it should be deleted. Don’t change its name, don’t take anything out of it if you figure out a way to get into it, don’t do anything at all.

I did take ownership of one of those folders, by the way, and yes there is stuff in it. It may be called fake stuff, mirror stuff, “just pointers” to stuff that is really elsewhere, or whatever you want to say about it. But there’s stuff in there – folders, subfolders, sub-subfolders and so on right now to files.

I would not even *consider* getting near the delete key for any of it. I might totally mess up something and never get it fixed. Like some program couldn’t find its pieces and parts and then what???

At any rate, my urge to look in there now that I’ve done it a couple times is just about zero. Funny how things change .

Its just the very idea of being locked out that infuriated me, I guess.

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Its just the very idea of being locked out that infuriated me, I guess.

kelliann1,
Hello… The fact is that you can remove, open, or delete anything that you want, on any OS…(if you know how) The question is do you want to, and are you prepared for the consequences ? Take it from me i have removed many more things that turned out bad, than turned out the way i had hoped.This is the reason some on this forum will not give you the “Tools” and tell you how to dabble in the “Ownership Removal” thing… Been there done that! Not pretty …cause not everyone does the “Imaging” thing….Me… i don’t care. if anyone wants to remove something …”don’t let me get in the way of their success and happiness”. I just “tell em” what they want …if i know the answer, and make sure to tell them to always take an Image first…. So if you want to remove something …just let me know….but consider:cheers: Regards Fred

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I found a ‘workaround’ on Microsoft answers when I had a similar problem with File/Folder Ownership/Permissions. http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-security/windows-7-ownership-of-foldersfiles-and-how-to/525fa4a2-63d1-4c23-8459-cc56c785fdea?tm=1330306676841

It really didn’t answer my question as to what the default setting should be for Windows 7 but temporarily solved my problem while I research it some more.

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kelliann1,
Hello… The fact is that you can remove, open, or delete anything that you want, on any OS…(if you know how) The question is do you want to, and are you prepared for the consequences ? Take it from me i have removed many more things that turned out bad, than turned out the way i had hoped.This is the reason some on this forum will not give you the “Tools” and tell you how to dabble in the “Ownership Removal” thing… Been there done that! Not pretty …cause not everyone does the “Imaging” thing….Me… i don’t care. if anyone wants to remove something …”don’t let me get in the way of their success and happiness”. I just “tell em” what they want …if i know the answer, and make sure to tell them to always take an Image first…. So if you want to remove something …just let me know….but consider:cheers: Regards Fred

Fred – Sorry for the late reply. I am too much of a scaredy cat to mess with anything I am not supposed to mess with but with XP I could at least *look* if I wanted to! I understand the danger of malware doing evil if I as User “own” everything and the danger of Windows 7 beginners and novices (like me) monkeying around with stuff and maybe wrecking the system. BUT: I want to be able to look at whatever I want to look at.

I do have a question about the file structure of Windows 7, but guess I will ask in another thread because this one’s about access.

I found out how to do the “elevated command prompt” and become the “Big Cheese Administrator Of The Entire Win 7 Universe On My Computer” (different from merely being a User Administrator) and it seems to me that at that time I could look at any darned thing I pleased. I might have found it on HowToGeek or maybe on Lindburgh’s http://lindburghs-reference-library.wikispaces.com If I remember right, it is easy to become the Big Cheese Administrator on all Windows 7 versions EXCEPT Windows 7 Basic and Windows 7 Home Premium (I have Home Premium on this machine I am using and Professional on the other one).

Kelliann

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I don’t see why it is said that Windows 7 is better than Vista. It seems to be plagued with about the same problems. This problem already existed in Vista. Why wasn’t it fixed? Windows 7 is a disappointment so far.

“A”,
Hello…As far as taking “Ownership” and granting “Full control”…. Nothing has changed … In XP, Vista and now “7” you have to ( when using the “Properties” ) route go through the same steps …If you don’t do them in the correct way …”It ain’t Happin”. Windows is quite picky and will deliberately try to confuse you ..EX: “greyed out check boxes” that really can be checked … If you want to explore this… post back, and i will step by step show you how to “Take Ownership” and “Grant Full control”. Just give me a folder file registry entry and will go through it.:cheers: Regards Fred

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It’s not just what the user may do accidentally, but if the user is granted permissions to access a file or folder, then anything running under that user account has access too – think what a badly behaved bit of code or worse a piece of malware could do if it had unfettered access, but that’s what you might be giving it, even if you didn’t intend.

Image backup is good (if not essential), but some malware can remain undetected, stealing data that would otherwise be inaccessible, or the damage caused by a runaway app may be subtle enough not to notice until weeks or months down track.

“Take Ownership” is a valid thing to do on occasions. It is the same in Linux (as root), as it is Windows (as Administrator). But I feel it should be done with eyes open and an understanding of the potential consequences.

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As an aside, I run a highly modified installation of Windows 7. The way my system is setup, all Junction Points are traversable. If I click on “Documents and Settings” it will open the Users folder, but the title bar will display as “Documents and Settings”. It works the same with all the other Junction Points, as well.

30205-Documents-and-Settings

The behavior I get out of Windows 7 is not unlike XP – I can do pretty much whatever I want. On the other hand, I could really screw things up big time if I got careless. For just that reason, I don’t recommend my setup for any but the most experienced users, but it works the way I want it to, not stuck in Microsoft’s box.[/SIZE][/FONT]

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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I think “Big Cheese” would have been a much better title for Microsoft to have chosen for THE Adminstrator instead of “Built-In”!

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Bruce R –
Me too.

Kelliann

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Had a rare flash of inspiration in the shower. When I had dried off, I went to one of the computers with the annoying Access Denied folders showing in WE. In WE > Tools > Folder options > View > selected Don’t show hidden folders, files or drives: Problem solved. Now for the other affected m/c.

I know it’s useful, perhaps advisable for certain security reasons, to select Show hidden folders, files or drives, but it’s sure nice to have a break from seeing those things in the tree that I know wouldn’t open.

I should add that I still see folders decorated with little curly arrows, but every one is accessible.

Dic

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Not sure why you would care about being unable to undo that if you had already decided that this is a folder which you need to delete.

I didn’t want to delete the Local Settings folder, but the subfolder Shareaza, which that program had created there. As a problem solver a ‘clean install’ instruction said to delete that folder.

It turns out that the instructions were written for Windows XP, so it seems that the error is located there and not in Windows 7. However, the ‘Access denied’ problem because a file or folder is used by another program still occurs in Windows 7.

It’s not just what the user may do accidentally, but if the user is granted permissions to access a file or folder, then anything running under that user account has access too – think what a badly behaved bit of code or worse a piece of mal ware could do if it had unfettered access, but that’s what you might be giving it, even if you didn’t intend.

Only ‘Everyone’ is denied access to that folder.Apparently that doesn’t include programs. So it would seem viruses can hide there from the user. At least virus scanners should have access too. Beside, giving the user read access shouldn’t be a security issue.

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Aye, but how come those pesky little arrows show up on folders — including My Documents, for goodness sake — on two of my Win7 Home Premium installations but not on two others? On one of those machines, the one I call my work m/c, I can double-boot with XP. I never use Win7 on that (unconnected) computer even though it’s the one I use, for several hours each day, for writing books. If it weren’t for the other three computers’ connections to the Internet and LAN I should get rid of Win7 and reinstall XP on each.

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Kelliann,
Hello… There is a much easier way , if all you want to do is look. (allows you to do more if wanted) A small free program called WinBubble I use this all the time on Vista and “7” It has never failed letting me open and look at anything ( even with the little lock thing ) WinBubble adds a Right click context menu choice…”Take ownership” ..You simply select the recalcitrant folder file and select (Right click) “Take Ownership” ….You’ll then see a command prompt screen open and auto scroll through the folderfile ….Done … you now can open it, and have a look see. . Never has caused any problems for me, using it for several years…. :cheers:Regards Fred

PS: I use 1.76…Still available… can’t say about any others

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I know Fred uses WinBubbles, I use an app called Ultimate Windows Tweaker(very similar). This was original promoted as the TweakUI of Win 7 on steroids.

30242-UWT

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