Gparted! Removing a hard-disk partition

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Hello and Yeah ! for Windows Seven.

I have a Vista machine that was upgraded to W-7, not one problem at all. Acer desktop M 1610.

This upgrade left a Recovery partition in front of the C: of roughly 45 G out of a 250 G HD, a partiton D: has 65 G. The upgrade partiton was useless as I never intended to revert to Vista. I used Gparted to move the C: to the left and use that spare space. It obviously crunged the MBR, no sweat, I thought. I fully intended to go to a command prompt and enter the fix mbr input. The Win-7 DVD was inserted and it carried out on its own the MBR thing, I was left totally unaware of when it did it but it did. It showed many lines of checking process on all the files and sectors and after a short while I am back in operation.

As I mentioned above . . . Yeah ! for Windows Se7en. I now have the full 185 G for C: and D: is still happy with its 65 G. Kid’s play !

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Couldn’t you have done all that within Windows 7?

BATcher

Plethora means a lot to me.

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I’m glad you had such a good experience with moving things around and still getting them to work.

I’ve basicly performed the same procedure occasionally on many a XP system, and even though one thinks they know what they’re doing; still got the fingers crossed that everything will be ok after messing with the partitions and moving data around. Of course XP isn’t as dainty as Vista or 7, so there’s never been a need for a startup repair to get it going again; it just boots up like nothing ever happened; but that’s a topic for another discussion.

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Couldn’t you have done all that within Windows 7?

Not with the native tools (Recovery partition in front of the C:), would have to use third party software that ran in 7 and changed things in a protected mode on boot, but even then, I would personally be a bit uncomforable with something like that…seems potentiall like more could go wrong.

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Batcher, hello. You wrote : Couldn’t you have done all that within Windows 7?

I think not as the intervention was on the C: and none of this is allowed in Windows, it holds the MBR and the booting. It had to be done using a non-Windows app, I think that it is then done from RAM.. Gparted is a touchy app to use for newbie but if one is careful, it does the trick. It needed 2 :48 hrs to move all the stuff over the Recovery partition. As I wrote, the MBR was not properly moved, I expected this and I was ready to do the “fix mbr” thingee but Win-7 spoiled my fun.

If you can do this from inside any Windows, do let me know, I am willing to learn.

Jean.

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I used Gparted to move the C: to the left and use that spare space.

Jean,
Hello… Gparted is a good partition manager ( boot disk type from sourceforge ) and for those who are not familiar with it it can be had for free from here http://gparted.sourceforge.net/download.php Glad to hear that it worked well for you, and should be part of everyone’s “tool kit” Regards Fred

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Fred, hello.

Do you think that it could have been done inside Windows as Batcher mentioned ? I think not as it is on the boot drive and Windows does not let any shenanigan to take place there. EG: I have an XP machine that somehow elected to name the boot drive one day when I was fooling with it, to G: and there is no way that I can make it C: unless you tell me how I could.

Have a great evening.

Jean.

Edit: two typoes.

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Do you think that it could have been done inside Windows as Batcher mentioned ?

Jean,
Hello… Any time that i “fooled” moving partitions that had anything to do with C: always required a re-boot.. Did not matter if i was using Acronis , or any of the other “Tools” However i have moved things from within windows …as long as they were not part of the “OS “. So to answer your question as far as i can tell you could move delete, a partition as long as it is not part of C: If then you were to add the new space to C: I’m pretty sure it would require a re-boot. Regards Fred

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Jean, No! Windows 7 Disk Manager will recover space behind the OS, but not in front of the OS on the disk. Fir that a 3rd party app is needed. I used Partition Wizard free home edition for this purpose. You could have inserted the Win 7 disk, and run a Repair Install as well to fix the MBR. Because your Vista had been installed first, it help the MBR which had to be rebuilt when you said bye to Vista. Fortunately there is a ton of info on the net on this problem, along with several threads in these forums for those just getting to this proble. If you are one of those people just starting the process Jean just finished, read up on the process before starting it.

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Ted a cool morning to you, it is 30° F here today.

(Quote ) Because your Vista had been installed first, it help the MBR which had to be rebuilt when you said bye to Vista.

It was not there anymore. Yes, Vista was there from the store but had been replaced by W-7 about a year ago thus the wasted Vista recovery in front of C: that I wanted to regain.

(Quote ) Fortunately there is a ton of info on the net on this problem, along with several threads in these forums for those just getting to this problem.

Yes, I agree, nothing beats RTFM. Nothing like writing this up to help others, this is how I benefited from others’ experiences. Thanks Ted.

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Fred, hello.

” If then you were to add the new space to C: I’m pretty sure it would require a re-boot.”.

It needed more than a reboot, it needed a new MBR. The DVD from W-7 did it all on its own, I just sat there and watched it performing that trick.

What did you really mean by reboot ?

A great day to you.

Jean.

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What did you really mean by reboot ?

Jean,
Hello… For example i use several partition managers..EASEUS for one can be run from within windows … similar to Acronis ( Like when you add a Secure Zone ) these programs can’t complete the action ( like adding free space to your C: partition ) until you re-boot … Then, they will complete the action that you started from within windows. Most “Partition Managers” have to be run from a CD at boot time… because C: is “in use” otherwise. Regards Fred

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All right, couldn’t you have done all that at installation? You had a choice of clean install or upgrade.

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All right, couldn’t you have done all that at installation? You had a choice of clean install or upgrade.

This is true, but many of us change our minds as time goes on, and wish to change or partitioning schemes, or change our OSes or whatever, and need to make changes to the basic order of our PCes, and thusly we utilize these various apps to assist with these changes with the least disruption to our computing. I have found that partition apps allow me to make significant changes with no problems created in fairly short order, perhaps an hour or less. In today’s computing environment these apps work wonders, saving many tedious hours of reinstallation.

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Hello Peter in Peterborough. ( there is no Jeanborough ! )

( Quote ) All right, couldn’t you have done all that at installation? You had a choice of clean install or upgrade.

You are so right, in hindsight ! I did an upgrade thus the option was not presented. After a while of looking at Computor Management, I noticed this and wanted to remedy the situation. Gparted helped me and then after the move the MBR had to be redone, it did it by itself. Great, no ?

Maybe the upgrade did offer this : Use the whole disk. I forget.

Jean.

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Hello Peter in Peterborough. ( there is no Jeanborough ! )

( Quote ) All right, couldn’t you have done all that at installation? You had a choice of clean install or upgrade.

You are so right, in hindsight ! I did an upgrade thus the option was not presented. After a while of looking at Computor Management, I noticed this and wanted to remedy the situation. Gparted helped me and then after the move the MBR had to be redone, it did it by itself. Great, no ?

Maybe the upgrade did offer this : Use the whole disk. I forget.

Jean.

I was really just playing by echoing Batcher’s post, but something that might interest you is the free EasyBCD which I think can be helpful with boot problems.

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peterg, hello again.

A mega thanks for this headup, EasyBCD.. I went to Google and read all aboput it, well, enough to satify my curiosity. It does sound like a valuable app. For the moemnt, I do not need it as the DVD of W-7 cured my self-induced hiccup, on its own. I will keep this in mind.

I already have UBCD for windows and it has all the MBR tricks. There is no end to the help available here for the asking.

Be good and again, thanks.

Jean.

Typoes again !

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I was really just playing by echoing Batcher’s post, but something that might interest you is the free EasyBCD which I think can be helpful with boot problems.

Indeed EasyBCD is great, however in this case, if I’ve read it right, initially there was no working OS to boot into in order to run EasyBCD and correct the problem. I use EasyBCD for some of these exact problems but, its with XP running dual boot so I have XP to boot into and fix the Win7 problem.

Edit additional: Or does EasyBCD have a bootable CD ISO or something like that that I can use?

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Indeed EasyBCD is great, however in this case, if I’ve read it right, initially there was no working OS to boot into in order to run EasyBCD and correct the problem. I use EasyBCD for some of these exact problems but, its with XP running dual boot so I have XP to boot into and fix the Win7 problem.

Edit additional: Or does EasyBCD have a bootable CD ISO or something like that that I can use?

Yes, I believe there are multiple such options, and it may also be handy (being small) to leave installed, since it will save/restore if you make changes and want to undo.

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Byron, you get 0 ( zero) for reading.

I had Win-7 running as an upgrade to Vista and I was left with the Vista recovery partition, this is the space on the HD that I moved the C: boot partition to and needed then to redo the MBR. The jest of my post was to show that Win-7 can cure itself, I slipped in its install DVD, it noted that there was a problem and offered to fix it, obviously, it redid the MBR as I am fully operational.

The EasyBCD would have saved my day otherwise but in this case, was not needed. Win-7 to the fore !

Be good.

Jean.

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Sorry, I should have been more clear I guess. I was talking about the time just after using GParted and before using the StartUp repair function of the Windows 7 DVD.

My question was how to use EasyBCD at the specific time, in order to get Win 7 cookin’ again. I can do it most times because I have Win XP to boot into and fix the 7 install. But with no other OS to boot into and run EasyBCD…there would have to be some sort of LiveCD similarity to Gparted or bootable repair functionality, like the 7 install DVD.

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I have used EasyBCD before, but do not know how this app can be used to fix the MBR prior to boot. This is where the Win 7 Repair Installation excels. Insert the Win 7 DVD, boot to DVD, choose Repair installation then allow DVD to repair the installation, or use Command Prompt to repair the MBR, although this involves more knowledge on the necessary Dos commands to allow this repair.

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Byron, good morning.

“Sorry, I should have been more clear I guess. I was talking about the time just after using GParted and before using the StartUp repair function of the Windows 7 DVD.”

Yes, yes ! Gotcha !

“My question was how to use EasyBCD at the specific time, in order to get Win 7 cookin’ again. I can do it most times because I have Win XP to boot into and fix the 7 install. But with no other OS to boot into and run EasyBCD…there would have to be some sort of LiveCD similarity to Gparted or bootable repair functionality, like the 7 install DVD. ”

Good advice ! But most of us, specially I, are not that much attuned to a CLI, I hurdled this step in my binary education and going back at my advanced age is another, greater hurdle. The Win-7 install DVD saved my neck and for the non-CLI users, I mentioned it.

Thanks for your time and dedication, Byron.

Jean.

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Ted, you get a good morning too.

( Quote ) I have used EasyBCD before, but do not know how this app can be used to fix the MBR prior to boot. This is where the Win 7 Repair Installation excels. Insert the Win 7 DVD, boot to DVD, choose Repair installation then allow DVD to repair the installation, or use Command Prompt to repair the MBR, although this involves more knowledge on the necessary Dos commands to allow this repair. ( Unquote )

This is what I wrote to Byron, CLIs are good life-savers but one really has to know what is what here. I fully intended to CLI a fix MBR à la XP when I did the Gparted trick, I did not have to, to my surprise. I still have a printed copy of the required commands, saved from a few years back. I still will keep that 8″ x 11.5″, one never knows.

Have a great day.

Jean.

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Given that you seem to hope that this thread will be useful to others, some of what’s been stated probably ought to be questioned.

1. The MBR never ‘moves’ and is never part of any partition: it’s always located in the first sector on the disk.

2. It’s extremely unlikely that Gparted did anything to the MBR that caused your problems (at least if you were running it from a ‘live’ CD: if you installed a Linux system to run Gparted, then it probably did change the MBR boot code).

3. It’s more likely that the partition which you deleted contained the Vista/Win7 boot manager, so that when you deleted it you lost the ability to boot the Win7 partition (and may have left the disk with no partition marked ‘active’). This is one type of problem which the Win7 installation disk can fix (as it apparently did for you).

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Bill, a good morning to you.

Your note makes so much sense that it hurts .
I totally agree with it, the MBR is on the HD and the boot manager was the thingee that got moved then redone. To the uneducated eyes, what I said was the “apparent” solution to moving the C: active partiton up on the HD to regain the non relevant Vista partition. You hit it right on the nail as far as the actual resolution to my quandry. My bad in not being specific as to what took place. I thank you for setting this straight.

Now, because of your specific knowledge, I will hit you with a question. Where is the HD password lodged ? There is a theory about that it is next to the MBR. Why is this available on laptop, ( obviously that they are easily stolen ) and not on desktop ? I wonder if I were to slip in a PW protected laptop HD into a desktop, would I be asked for a PW and more importantly, would I be given the possibility to enter it ? See ? You do not get off easy.

Great education, one gets here. Jean.

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Now, because of your specific knowledge, I will hit you with a question. Where is the HD password lodged ?

I’m not Bill but I am curious what you are referencing when you say HD password.

I know about bios based passwords on boot and about login passwords for the operating system, I also am familiar with drive encryption systems such as Truecrypt but would like clarification on what an HD password is….

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I share mercyh’s confusion about what you’re referring to, unless it’s to a new type of hardware-encrypted disk (IIRC Seagate offers some).

In general, passwords aren’t stored anywhere any more (save in specific applications like password managers, and even then their master passwords probably aren’t stored). Instead, you provide a password and the software or hardware applies it to some known stored area to see whether it decrypts known data that should be there. If it does, you’re in (and it uses the password – or extended information that it decrypted – to decrypt the rest of what you want); if not, tough luck.

So, for example, if you encrypt a disk using TrueCrypt when you provide a password it applies it to such data on the disk to see whether it produces anything usable. If you use hardware encryption on one of those new Seagate disks that I mentioned it applies the password which you provide in much the same way (if it instead, for example, stored that password unencrypted on the disk surface or in some flash RAM on the drive, someone could go looking for it and decrypt the rest of the drive with it).

Modern disks do have something called a ‘host protected area’ which is not normally accessible, where, e.g., a RAID implementation can store data about its structure and membership, but that doesn’t sound like what you’re asking about.

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You guys are giving me hard time.

I have been looking for that IBM-Hitachi text on this HD PW and can not find it any longer. I will keep on looking and place the URL here when I find it.

The jest of this is that in BIOS, you can enter a HD PW, not a power on PW, it is more restrictive. I have only seen this on laptops. What it does is lock the access to the HD itself. Even if you place it in another lapotp, you can not open the HD. After the POST is done, it shows a “volume” on the screen with a #1 beside it asking for the PW. If one does not provide it, nothing goes, in the original laptop or any other laptop. Trust me but for your own education, find a laptop and see if in BIOS you can see as on my G41 Thinkpad.

I hit F1 to enter BIOS, went to Security -> Password and at the bottom it says : Hard Disk1 Password [ user ] as I have one set. Total data protection, somebody could steal your laptop, place a new HD in it and use it but that fleet-fingered user could not have access to your data on the HD.

Google for a few ” hard drive password “. It is all fun !

Jean.

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I have found my text, it is a .pdf and refers to Document # S07N-7681-09, Publication # 1540 on the ibm.com/harddrive site.

If you are interested, I could U/L the .pdf here, maybe ??? Here goes, it is not over the 2 MBs limit. Start reading at page 86, it is called a “device lock” password. You will see that the protection also includes a Master reset PW but the data is erased if it is used. Data protection to the extreme.

All my laptops are so protected, even the not yet 1 year old Toshiba. I am not that paranoîod but I do not want a “borrower” to enjoy my bank accounts.

Let me know what you think. Jean.

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This looks like it is implemented on the hard drive’s firmware and accessed through the BIOS of the machine that it is installed on. I have never seen it so have never messed with it. It looks like it would create a pretty high level of security, however, if something went wrong it may make the drive unrecoverable. I will have to look at the bios on some of my machines and see if they have the option password the drive…….

When does it ask you for the password on your machine? I would assume it would have to be during the post period of bootup as it should not allow the drive to begin feeding data to the CPU until this password has been authenticated.

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mercyh, you are right, it looks at the HD PW just after POST. It then allows the MBR to be read and actioned. I have read that it is in the next sector to the MBR and the logic board on the device is the one that controls this.It explains why even if you move the HD into another machine it still will not be seen. In BIOS, look at Security -> HD Password. I was surprised to see that my Toshiba also allowed this, the BIOS is quite different, it is not IBM nor Hitachi but it still offered the option.

Pretty secure move, very basic from a machine point of view, again you are right, if the PW is fogotten…..game over. I used to be on a forum pertaining to this, people are dumb or hard headed, even if I would quote from this .pdf to them, they still wanted a way to remove the HD PW, THERE IS NONE !

I have also looked into the Master PW business, I was never able to find any data about it. If you get locked out, buy another HD.

Such is life ! Jean.

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Placing any password support in a normally-accessible sector on the drive would be a very bad idea. For example, some ill-conceived copy-protection implementations use one or more sectors following the MBR (as does TrueCrypt’s whole-disk encryption implementation), and could destroy the password support and access to the disk.

What you describe sounds more like the implementation that I mentioned that some Seagate drives use, which I suspect uses flash RAM and special firmware on the drive for the password support (though it could use some area on the disk surface that was made inaccessible by the disk firmware to other activity). It could also be implemented in the notebook’s BIOS, thus avoiding the need for any special on-disk support.

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It could also be implemented in the notebook’s BIOS, thus avoiding the need for any special on-disk support.

It seems to me that this would negate the security against someone pulling the drive. I have never used bios passwords as I felt they offered no significant increase in protection. If I wanted the data, I would simply pull the drive and put it in another machine or dock and have at it. This sounds like it would protect against that.

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It seems to me that this would negate the security against someone pulling the drive. I have never used bios passwords as I felt they offered no significant increase in protection. If I wanted the data, I would simply pull the drive and put it in another machine or dock and have at it. This sounds like it would protect against that.

I was not referring to the standard BIOS password support, but to the potential to add further support to the BIOS to encrypt the contents of the drive. This could certainly work in cases where the operating system vectored all drive access through the BIOS at one level or another, which the BIOS itself might be able to enforce even for modern systems which attempt to bypass it for performance (i.e., it could hook requests at the hardware level in ways that it did not previously do, though this might require support from other portions of the hardware as well, e.g., the northbridge and/or southbridge).

How much doing this might affect performance I don’t know. My guess is that most laptops aren’t tremendously sensitive to disk performance, but including sufficient processing support in the BIOS itself might still be expensive and modifying all relevant operating systems to allow the CPU to perform the processing on the BIOS’s behalf might be infeasible. My comment in this area was fairly off-the-cuff – it just seemed like one other possible approach that could provide a similar level of security.

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mercyh, me again.

(Quote ) If I wanted the data, I would simply pull the drive and put it in another machine or dock and have at it. This sounds like it would protect against that. (unquote )

Ah ! ah ! gotcha. No way, this locks the HD, not the machine. Nothing in BIOS. To experiment this, I once took a protected HD from one Thinkpad and placed it into another Thinkpad, not the same models, and it asked for the PW, I typed it in and the booting took place, it is on the HD.

Also, Bill seems to worry about where the lock is placed, from p95 on, in that .pdf, it shows that it is :

Subcommand code 09h Enable Address Offset Mode offsets address Cylinder 0, Head 0, Sector 1,
LBA 0, to the start of the nonvolatile protected area established using the Set Max Address command.

This is where the MBR rests, 0-0-1 on the platen. It can not be budged, the logic locks it and it can not be overwriten by any other protection, first in has the throne.

Do let me know what you find out on your laptop. I never saw this on a desktop ! ? ! ?

Be sure to remember the PW, once forgotten = game over. Buy a new HD, the machine is still good.

What an education ! Jean.

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Also, Bill seems to worry about where the lock is placed, from p95 on, in that .pdf, it shows that it is :

Subcommand code 09h Enable Address Offset Mode offsets address Cylinder 0, Head 0, Sector 1,
LBA 0, to the start of the nonvolatile protected area established using the Set Max Address command.

This is where the MBR rests, 0-0-1 on the platen. It can not be budged, the logic locks it and it can not be overwriten by any other protection, first in has the throne.

I’m not exactly sure what you think you’re saying above, but here’s what reading that section (and the one on password protection) tells me:

1. The password does not encrypt the disk at all, but rather causes it to reject commands unless the appropriate password has been provided. What this means is that one could still read the bits off the platter using various forensic means that read them after removing the platter from the drive, but that level of protection is likely sufficient for most users.

2. What the offset capability does is offset every access, INCLUDING the MBR location, to the start of the protected area previously defined by a SET MAX command. This allows a SECOND MBR (plus an entire pseudo-disk up to the end of the real disk) to be created there while leaving the original earlier portion of the disk (including the original MBR location) untouched (and normally inaccessible). It has nothing to do with password protection, which if enabled protects the entire real disk regardless.

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I checked my Dell Vostro 1520 and it does have the option in bios, however, the option is locked. I don’t know if this means that my harddrive does not support it or…???

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Hello and good morning Bill.

(Q) 1. The password does not encrypt the disk at all, but rather causes it to reject commands unless the appropriate password has been provided. What this means is that one could still read the bits off the platter using various forensic means that read them after removing the platter from the drive, but that level of protection is likely sufficient for most users.(uQ)

This is the general understanding about this procedure. The platen can obviously be read using sophisticated instrumentation, it is offered at a great cost by some labs, upward of $400.00 per HD. The HD has to be opened and by-passing its logic board, the data is read. I could not do this in my shop.

(Q)2. What the offset capability does is offset every access, INCLUDING the MBR location, to the start of the protected area previously defined by a SET MAX command. This allows a SECOND MBR (plus an entire pseudo-disk up to the end of the real disk) to be created there while leaving the original earlier portion of the disk (including the original MBR location) untouched (and normally inaccessible). It has nothing to do with password protection, which if enabled protects the entire real disk regardless. (uQ)

Not so, in my mind. We all know that the 0-0-1 sector has gaps left in it and this is the only place where the re-location is done, not the entire disk. read that part over again and look at the very rough schematic shown, with the arrows. You are right, it does not encrypt the data on the HD, or so I understand. Offsetting every sector would take hours, Gparted is an exemple of this. The different labs that I have contacted, require a proof of purchase before they will even entertain a “contract”.

The moto of ” When there is a will, there is a way ” is true here but this HD PW protection is the best one against average crooks, even above average ones. I have been studying this for the last 7 years and I am still stumped but I am an average crook. I am quite surprised that people here did not know at all about this protection, even if it is only available on laptops. If you ever see it on a desktop, pray tell me.

Have a great day. Jean.

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(Q)2. What the offset capability does is offset every access, INCLUDING the MBR location, to the start of the protected area previously defined by a SET MAX command. This allows a SECOND MBR (plus an entire pseudo-disk up to the end of the real disk) to be created there while leaving the original earlier portion of the disk (including the original MBR location) untouched (and normally inaccessible). It has nothing to do with password protection, which if enabled protects the entire real disk regardless. (uQ)

Not so, in my mind.

Then you need to study the material again. Look especially carefully at the figures in section 11.11.1. Note how the location of LBA 0 (always the location of the MBR) changes from the physical start of the disk (when no offset is being used) to the start of what was originally the reserved area (when the address offset is enabled). What used to be the reserved area becomes the user accessible area, and what used to be the user accessible area becomes the reserved area (the earlier text makes it clear that this area of logical block numbers near the logical end of the disk in fact wraps around to occupy the same physical sectors at the start of the disk that hold what used to be the user accessible area).

We all know that the 0-0-1 sector has gaps left in it

Actually, it does not: its first 440 bytes contain the MBR basic boot code, followed by 6 bytes 4 of which often contain a Windows disk signature, followed by the four data tables for the 4 permitted primary partitions, followed by the signature word at the sector’s end.

Offsetting every sector would take hours

The offsetting is virtually instantaneous, because no data is moved at all: the definition of which LBAs refer to which physical sectors is simply changed.

I am quite surprised that people here did not know at all about this protection, even if it is only available on laptops.

Since it is an optional part of the ATA specification it’s not present in all ATA disks – and features which aren’t universally supported tend not to get used save in special situations and hence are not widely known.

Back when it was manufacturing disks IBM often took the lead in implementing such optional portions of the spec (e.g., it was perhaps the first vendor to include SCSI-like queued commands in ATA drives to improve performance). And being the manufacturer of both the laptop and the disk in it, it had the opportunity to leverage this security feature.

If you ever see it on a desktop, pray tell me.

I’ve read that many 3.5″ drives now support it because it was required by Microsoft for its XBox drives. But additional support is required in the system BIOS to get it to work, since the BIOS must be ready to provide the password to the disk before starting to boot it (which could mean that you’ll be SOL if you take a protected drive from a dead laptop and try to read it on a desktop machine, unless you write a small program to intercept a hot-plug operation and issue the appropriate commands to the disk before continuing to mount it – or an OS supporting hot-plugging is smart enough to do this automatically). Whether the newer Seagate on-drive encryption facilities also require special BIOS support I don’t know (they could be implemented such that they did not if they used normal mechanisms to begin booting and then included special support code on the disk to perform subsequent encryption activities, but that could get messy and might require integration with the OS as well).

Edit: I meant to call your attention to the fact that the password facility in section 11.10 which you referred to earlier has nothing to do with the password that’s used to protect the disk from unauthorized access (which is described in section 11.9).

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mercyh, hello.

(Q) I checked my Dell Vostro 1520 and it does have the option in bios, however, the option is locked. I don’t know if this means that my harddrive does not support it or…??? (uQ)

I am surprised that your HD would not honour this, the fact that it is locked in BIOS also is qweer. I can not remember any reading that would address this. Maybe only IDE ( PATA ? )mode would allow this ? No, my Toshiba is SATA and it is PW protected.

As far as slowing down the booting as Bill mentioned, I have not noticed any at all, mind you, the booting stops there with the request to enter the PW, this is a user delay, not system. As soon as the PW is entered, it keeps going on its merry way.

I got involved in this 7 years ago after I obtained some 20 g HDs that were PW protected. I intended to use them as USB cloners. Why they were not unlocked and flushed is beyond me as they were replaced by larger HDs. But I still was never to this day, able to use them, my bad. If you experiment this, do not forget the PW.

Be good. Jean.

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Hi Jean,

Could you please give me the link to UBCD. (The version I have doesn’t work with my computer, why I don’t know).

Thanks,
Roy

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Roy, try this :

http://www.ubcd4win.com/

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Bill, hello.

I am over my head in this. I only wanted to have this option known, simple as it is. Not the technical part, of which you seem quite aware. I am still digesting your lines.

Thanks for your time. Jean.

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Jean, thanks a lot for the link.

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Hi Guys,

I found this very interesting thread on the Dell site re: HDD Passwords.

May the Forces of good computing be with you!

RG

PowerShell & VBA Rule!
Computer Specs

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I have a practical (troubleshooting) question that I hope is still on-topic and that might benefit from the many experts this thread has attracted, and might interest others who are following the thread.

I have an old computer which runs Windows 7 Ultimate and Office 2010 superbly, all 32-bit with 2 GB of RAM, with a 2006 Fujitsu 60 GB drive. I have attempted to restore the image of that to a new 320 GB WD Scorpio Blue manufactured in the same month in 2010, which is to say exactly four years newer.

The new drive is SMART and it doesn’t seem to like the image at all. Maybe it should have been a bare metal install (several error messages said that an essential component was missing, but the only change has been to swap drives), but I did seem to have it working at times. I think I have every third-party utility mentioned in this thread, and some that are not. The problems I am having with the new drive sound like either a bad (restored from the 60 GB Fujitsu) MBR or else a hard drive that has gone bad. Apart from a clean install, are there any suggestions?

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peterg, good morning.

What app did you use to create the Image? I use Acronis and to put the Image onto a new HD requires (I believe) the plus pack. This allows an Image to be applied to a bare bones (new) PC. Perhaps a new HD is considered bare bones.

I wonder if it would work if you cloned the OS to the new HD instead of restoring the Image. Cloning involves attaching both HD’s and in essence moving the OS to the new HD directly from the old HD. I do not know if the new HD OS partition needs to be the same size as the old HD (I would partition the new HD anyway to create a 2nd partition for data). Cloning may be just what you need. Again without knowing the app you are using it’s hard to say for sure. I know Acronis and Macrium (I think) both allow cloning. I am not sure about the app included with Win 7. I hope this helps.

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Ted, good morning.

(Q)I wonder if it would work if you cloned the OS to the new HD instead of restoring the Image. Cloning involves attaching both HD’s and in essence moving the OS to the new HD directly from the old HD. I do not know if the new HD OS partition needs to be the same size as the old HD (I would partition the new HD anyway to create a 2nd partition for data). Cloning may be just what you need. Again without knowing the app you are using it’s hard to say for sure. I know Acronis and Macrium (I think) both allow cloning. I am not sure about the app included with Win 7. I hope this helps. (uQ)

I do this monthly, clone to a USB HD and I have too reversed the clone to the in house HD, works wonders. Be advised that Acronis clone will partition the Destination HD the same way the Source is and also allocate the space on a percentage basis to the Destination. You might have a Source 100 G HD, 2 partitions of 20 and 80 G, the Destination might be 200 G and will be partitioned to 40 and 160 G, or there about. A little more exhaustif if you have > 2 partitons but I am sure that you get the idea.

I still do not see the point of doing back ups when a clone does it all. That is me ! Semantics again, is an image not a clone ? Maybe an image will not copy the Boot manager ???

Jean.

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I think the biggest difference between Imaging the way I do and cloning the way you do is that an Image is compressed and thus more Images can be fit in a given HD space, whereas a clone is one for one size wise thus taking up more space. As far as usage, they both are most likely very similar. I’m not sure how close they would be time wise to create, then restore from, but I have to believe they are similar. I would suspect cloning may be slightly quicker because the app does not have to compress the file as well as duplicate it.

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Hmmm. I’ve never had any difficulty using Acronis products (including the free versions distributed by Seagate and Western Digital) to create an image of a system, move the image to another drive, and boot up. Years ago I used to use Partition Magic for the same purpose (copying the partition instead of taking an image of it), but PM started having problems with newer Windows versions (starting with XP) and I haven’t used it for this since (Paragon Partition Manager V8.5 and later seem to work well, though). Older Acronis versions that aren’t familiar with Vista/Win7 partitions might be risky to use as well, though my possibly incorrect recollection is that I once successfully used TrueImage V8 to image and restore a Vista partition.

I always do this using bootable CD versions of the software rather than trying to use the application running within the system being copied (the latter just seems like asking for trouble, even though vendors usually say that it should work fine – since I remember at least one case using PM many years ago when it didn’t).

So I’d recommend creating and then using such bootable CDs to take the image of the partition on the old drive, partition the new drive as you want it (this part you could do as well using the running old system rather than a bootable CD, but if you then run into trouble having the partition manager on such a CD might be useful), and then restore the image to the desired partition on the new drive, making sure that it’s marked Active (or that whatever partition should be is – I’m assuming that you had a vanilla system with a single partition rather than, say, one that was installed to dual-boot with XP and used the original and still active XP partition to host the Win7 boot loader and boot Win7 from there).

Using a whole-drive image instead SHOULD work as long as you’re moving to a larger drive, but I’ve never done that so will leave it to others to comment in that area.

Hope that helps,

– bill

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I do have it installed and running, but everything was in ultra-slow motion, with the boot taking forever along with everything else. The poor hard drive ran and ran and ran without so much as a pause, although I did get online for a time and managed to perform a few simple tasks. I used the repair feature of the installation CD, (just as in the OP) and that made some changes that helped, but eventually I got the interesting error message (while shutting down) that there were too many 16-bit operations running at the same time and to change the max in config.sys. I’m scratching my head over that, but it looks like things are going to work out. The installation
is still in a 60-GB sector of the drive with the remainder unallocated, so just expanding the free space by booting from a partition program disk may offer some relief.

I found your suggestions interesting and helpful. I would love to do it over, but every time I want a fresh backup I have to disassemble the computer to swap drives then disassemble again to reinstall etc. I have already lost a screw in the process and the chief worry is that it is still somewhere inside the computer just waiting to short something out on me..

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I would like to print this note here as it also concerned some of my posts in this tread as in the Security and Backup one.
Read the funny part about the validation and the 25 keys.
I have seen a location where one could change the keys, this could be a reason, but I can not find it anymore, any suggestion ?

Quoting myself here :

This ought to close this tread. I got my clone capability back, in a funny way but I just cloned my C: to a USB 60 G HD.

This entailed redoing my Acer in toto. I used Gparted, flushed all the stuff on it, deleted three partitions, formatted to NTFS and reloaded W-7 from the DVD install. Big booboo here, this was an upgrade DVD from Vista and I did not think of reloading Vista and proceeded, it then asked me for the keys, four times I entered them and got declared as not valid. Shoot.

I then used the DVD upgrade that I had received to do the Toshiba lapotp and IT TOOK THAT KEY! How can this be ? I am not complaining here but amazed that it worked. I had saved all my data before on another USB HD and now I am returning it to the C: when possible. Some have to be loaded the proper way and this is a little more time taking, fear not, I will succeed.

Thanks to all for honest attempts at helping me, only one could do this and I had to bite the bullet, I did…………………Jean.

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I have seen a location where one could change the keys, this could be a reason, but I can not find it anymore, any suggestion ?

I can’t put my finger on it exactly without a major search, but it is within Windows, possibly as an option available from the installation CD, or even somewhere in the Control Panel. I have seen it many times, and it is not a third-party affair if that is what you have in mind. You’re sure to see it again yourself, but now you know where you are likely to spot it.

I might add a password item that no one mentioned but that at least a few will remember, and that is the POP or Power-on Password. This was on at least one line of DOS-era Compaq computers, the LTE Lite. I think it was a maximum 4-digit password, and it was three strikes and you’re out: you had to get it right within three tries or power down and restart. If you forgot it? Well, someone who knows the innards of these things knows that there is a jumper you can pull and then replace to reset it.

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Peterg, hello.

I can’t put my finger on it exactly without a major search, but it is within Windows, possibly as an option available from the installation CD, or even somewhere in the Control Panel. I have seen it many times, and it is not a third-party affair if that is what you have in mind. You’re sure to see it again yourself, but now you know where you are likely to spot it.

I found it, in a round about way. I was trying to change the network name from Workgroup to my LAN’s name here and I saw it at the bottom of the screen. In a direct way, you go to Panel -> System and voilà !

I tried entering my Vista upgrade keys……… refused. Only valid for that upgrade not a clean install. Darn ! I might have to go the Vista way to save those keys, luckily, I made two DVDs of the install when the machine was brand new. Pondering the move.

Be good…………..Jean.

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Jean, good morning.

You can install Win 7 as a clean install from the upgrade media on a formated HD. Paul Thorrott’s Windows Seven Supersiteshows the method built into Win 7.

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Peterg, good morning.

I will look into the install DVD as I also seem to remember that the option was there to change the Product keys. But why did it accept the keys from a non possible source, the OEM DVD for a Toshiba ???

As far as getting rid of a lost PoPW, as before one could reset a jumper, in the newer machines, I think that removing the Real Time clock button cell does the same, methinks.

You be good. Jean.

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Hello. Has anybody succeeded in this removal of a HD PW yet ? I floated the idea a while back and even U/L’d a .pdf to that effect, post #30 here. There are still questions about this on some other sites.

Be good………… Jean.

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Hello. Has anybody succeeded in this removal of a HD PW yet ? I floated the idea a while back and even U/L’d a .pdf to that effect, post #30 here. There are still questions about this on some other sites.

Be good………… Jean.

A low-level format will wipe the disk clean of everything including offsets, etc. Of course, it will clean off everything else, as well. But if it is a disk that one wishes to use for other purposes, that shouldn’t be a problem, and the disk will no longer be password protected.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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A low-level format will wipe the disk clean of everything including offsets, etc. Of course, it will clean off everything else, as well. But if it is a disk that one wishes to use for other purposes, that shouldn’t be a problem, and the disk will no longer be password protected.

This raises a set of interesting questions about backups and images. Is the drive backed up or imaged? If so, does the image have the password of the drive (independent of any image software password)? Or is the data backed up in such a way that it can be restored to any drive as if there had been no drive password, which is treated as applicable to the drive of origin only, and not the backup of the contents? You can, of course, apply a password to the backup from within the backup (image) software.

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At the high end of things, or the future, (take your choice), there is a big difference between 64-bit and 32-bit. In fact it is at such a high end of things that I can barely understand a word of it, but you might take a peek at the discussions of Extensible Firmware Interface and of the GUID Partition Table (which I gather are the same subject by different names) in Wikipedia.

I was looking last night at some of the newer external drives, quite a few of which are USB3, with no apparent prospect of any machines that support USB3, and I can’t help wondering if they will be obsolete from the outset. Why not just buy more bandwidth and save your stuff to the clouds?

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Peter and bbaren, greets.

bb said : A low-level format will wipe the disk clean of everything including offsets, etc. Of course, it will clean off everything else, as well. But if it is a disk that one wishes to use for other purposes, that shouldn’t be a problem, and the disk will no longer be password protected.

With a PW protected HD you will not even get to see the possibility of doing a LL format. You will in now way get connected to it. The PW is like an “OFF” switch. If you can do this trick, you will get rich fast. I want 10%.

Trust me, I tried umpteen times, nogo !

The best of the season to you……..Jean.

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Trust me, I tried umpteen times, nogo !

And what software boot disk did you use for a low-level format?

If the BIOS can see the hard disk, the proper tool can wipe it completely clean; not even sectors will remain. It will then be rebuilt by cylinders, then sectors.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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And what software boot disk did you use for a low-level format?

If the BIOS can see the hard disk, the proper tool can wipe it completely clean; not even sectors will remain. It will then be rebuilt by cylinders, then sectors.

Is it possible the PW feature is implemented in the Drives hardware/firmware thus no access unless you have the PW?

May the Forces of good computing be with you!

RG

PowerShell & VBA Rule!
Computer Specs

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Is it possible the PW feature is implemented in the Drives hardware/firmware thus no access unless you have the PW?

Firmware is still “software”. With direct access to the hardware, nothing is impossible; it just takes the right tools.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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bbearren, good early morn.

Firmware is still “software”. With direct access to the hardware, nothing is impossible; it just takes the right tools.

Right you are. Some labs are doing the “save” by opening the case and forcing the head to read the 0.0.1 sector and reading the PW. Not the run-of-the-mill procedure even for us fellows here. This was the intent of my rambling. Any person who steals a laptop normally does not have this capabilty so your data is safe at 99.9% of cases. The Justice Department here, insists that all issued laptops be PW protected.

Have a Merry Christmas………….Jean.

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bbearren, good early morn.

Right you are. Some labs are doing the “save” by opening the case and forcing the head to read the 0.0.1 sector and reading the PW. Not the run-of-the-mill procedure even for us fellows here. This was the intent of my rambling. Any person who steals a laptop normally does not have this capabilty so your data is safe at 99.9% of cases. The Justice Department here, insists that all issued laptops be PW protected.

Have a Merry Christmas………….Jean.

I’m not speaking of retrieving protected data; I’m referring to reclaiming a blanked hard drive for future use.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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Peter, a special reply for you.

I had two Thinkpads here, twins. I imaged one to the other and it was PW protected. With the PW, it booted. I then swapped the HDs, A to B and B to A. They would boot after typing the proper PW, ie : A PW to its HD in B Thinkpad and B PW to B HD in A Thinkpad. So, it needs the proper PW associated with the HD and it is cloned too. After teh cloning, I changed PWs and that fooled the HD, again, I had to enter the new now proper PW and it booted.

This HD PW is the ultimate protection for your data only, installing a new HD, unprotected, allows the use of the machine.

Be good and do not forget your PW………….Jean.

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At the high end of things, or the future, (take your choice), there is a big difference between 64-bit and 32-bit. In fact it is at such a high end of things that I can barely understand a word of it, but you might take a peek at the discussions of Extensible Firmware Interface and of the GUID Partition Table (which I gather are the same subject by different names) in Wikipedia.

I have yet to not be able to sum up the difference in two words; greater capacity. 64-bit gets us beyond the 3.5 Gigs of RAM barrier and GUID PT gets us beyong the 2.19 TB boot drive barrier. I can’t imagine why I might want a 3TB boot drive but in case I ever do see a reason, I can.

USB3 will blend right in because its backward compatible so there will come a time ( espcially now that there’s a definition from Intel on its functional on-board parameters) when all USB ports are v.3.0 while most things plugged in may still be 2.0 devices. The cloud is fine but folks still want (or at least should want) a local backup as well, and its quite nice to transfer data at the max speed of my older hard drives–I imagine its fantastic with a SSD.

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I have yet to not be able to sum up the difference in two words; greater capacity. 64-bit gets us beyond the 3.5 Gigs of RAM barrier and GUID PT gets us beyong the 2.19 TB boot drive barrier. I can’t imagine why I might want a 3TB boot drive but in case I ever do see a reason, I can.

USB3 will blend right in because its backward compatible so there will come a time ( espcially now that there’s a definition from Intel on its functional on-board parameters) when all USB ports are v.3.0 while most things plugged in may still be 2.0 devices. The cloud is fine but folks still want (or at least should want) a local backup as well, and its quite nice to transfer data at the max speed of my older hard drives–I imagine its fantastic with a SSD.

I refuse to quote Bill Gates, but Man, are you begging for it.

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I refuse to quote Bill Gates, but Man, are you begging for it.

If its the reportedly famous one about RAM, he didn’t say it, but I get the gist. It would be better if you gave any example…one I can think of is when SSDs are over 2.19 TB…and an affordable commodity…but how long is that going to be?

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Usually the low level manufacturer’s password is a dirivative of the company’s name…I forget the particulars but its all in the Myharddrivedied Podnutz podcasts…somewhere…or I may have heard it on one of the Myharddrivedied ComputerAmerica shows…definitely heard it from Scott Moulton, that I’m sure of

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Retired G., hello.

You wrote : Is it possible the PW feature is implemented in the Drives hardware/firmware thus no access unless you have the PW?

YOU GOT IT, YEAH ! As I wrote a few posts up, the PW is like an OFF switch to the HD. I even tried switching logic boards on two similar HDs, no go ! I was like bbearren at one time, I got 7 of these that were PW protected and no how could I do anything with them. It is really the ultimate data ( only ) protection.

We are having fun, no ?………….Jean.

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bearren, me still.

>>> I’m not speaking of retrieving protected data; I’m referring to reclaiming a blanked hard drive for future use.

Still not doable. Sorry. Jean.

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bearren, me still.

>>> I’m not speaking of retrieving protected data; I’m referring to reclaiming a blanked hard drive for future use.

Still not doable. Sorry. Jean.

I find it difficult to fathom why IBM would have a “black hole” option on any consumer product. That leaves me to believe that there exists a recovery option in the event of a forgotten password for a drive that may contain critical data, a likely scenario in a business environment (the market for IMB Thinkpad).

And I didn’t see an answer for my question about what software you booted into to try to reformat the drive(s).

Oh, and “Merry Christmas!”

Here’s a link that might work for you:

http://www.hardwarea…threadid=363885

The link to download the utility is in post #8. I’ve downloaded, unzipped and scanned the file. MSE says it is clean. From what I’ve read, you’ll need a Windows 98 startup floppy disk with the utility on it.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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bbearen, good morning. Getting ready for 2011 ?

I will place here, part of a text on PATA description. It is not IBM or any other that is placing these PWs on their devices, it is part of the PATA philosophy.

Have fun. ……….Jean.

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Hi Jean

Didn’t try it, did you?

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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bbearren, hi !

>>> Didn’t try it, did you?

No, I have not. I do not have a floppy drive anymore, to D/L to or to open after the D/L. I have the .zip here and I will look around for a way to satisfy our curiosiry. Maybe run from a USB key ??? Further news as they develop.

Still, have a Happy…………….Jean.

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As it stands, it is 0 for bbrearren and 1 for Jean.

I did D/L that .zip and had to go through a few steps to get it to work, first, when did you last use unzip ??? I then had to move it to an USB key and then again to a floppy. I have one floppy reader left and it is in this large Thinkpad, the G41 and it happens that this is where the protected HD is.

I first made a clone, just in case, not required. I ran that little programme and it denoted that the HD was on a #1 level of protection, hey, good, it is. I then selected the HD and as soon as it hit its third step to remove all, it aborted, it did not reach into the HD as it is still PW protected. I just rebooted the G41 now, it asked for the PW, I typed it and XP is loading fine.

1 for Jean, 0 for bbearren !

I was having fun………..Jean.

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As it stands, it is 0 for bbrearren and 1 for Jean.

Au contraire. Didn’t try it, did you?

And here I thought it was a stand-up comedy routine. An entertaining thread, a least.

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Is this the BIOS hard drive password? If so I heard a crazy method where you get another drive and password protect it and then go through the change password routine but as its asking for the password to change it to you swap connections with the protected drive and finish entering the password and ok it. Probably need an identical drive for it to have a chance..and a lot of luck…sounds like a good way to hose the second drive also

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crazy method

That about sums it up. Pulling the plug on a spinning drive is a sure way to cause all kinds of problems. IMHO.

May the Forces of good computing be with you!

RG

PowerShell & VBA Rule!
Computer Specs

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That about sums it up. Pulling the plug on a spinning drive is a sure way to cause all kinds of problems. IMHO.

You mean after all of this talk about the drive being locked and the protection being equivalent to an OFF switch that the drive actually spins?

There is always a back door, and a good back door is hard to find.

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RG, hello.

>>> crazy method

I must be too as I had read about this move and tried it……..Still no go……..Jean.

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Ok, the full poop, scoop and dope to boot.
1.Victoria or MHDD allow you to enter the password, in this case the Master password (no access via BIOS), not the user password, which is unknown, but which can be accessed and reset via master password access. Master password is set by the laptop manufacturer so it is either unknown also BUT, if its a regular consumer drive that was never part of an original install, there are some common passwords used. For instance Western Digital’s common one is WDC over and over until its 32 characters. Maxtor is just that, Maxtor, with a captial M over and over until its 32 characters, and Seagate, same thing.

2. There is a firmware tool called PC3000…its only about 10 grand…$15,000 when fully equiped.

3. Finally, for those who can’t quite swing the 15Gs, there is a website called HDD Unlock that you go to, and for a much more reasonable fee based on hard drive size, you can remove both the user and master passwords. Both PATA and SATA drives are supported and its fairly reasonable for smaller drives. I think you said you had 20Gig drives Jean, so that’s only $5 a pop for that size.

This material gleened from listening to Show 11 of MyHardDriveDied with Scott Moulton.

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Byron, a nice end of the year good day to you.

I will have to agree with you, if something was designed by a human mind, another humand mind will be able to control it. Thus the PW can be defeated but doing so, all the data is flushed, the philosphy is still valid, the data though lost is protected. This is ingrained into the HD logic board. Is there a human mind that will defeat this protection, no doubt.

The jest of my rambling was that this is not for the run-of-the-mill hacker. You might be, not I ! Most of the thiefs grabbing a laptop, are not that smart.

A tremendous amount of information was published here, thanks to all…………..Jean.

NB: I do not have the $15k.

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