How Windows 10 data collection trades privacy for security

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Excellent article from Fahmida Rashid, in InfoWorld. As you read it, keep in mind that Win10 Home and Pro are considered to be “consumer” versions. Th
[See the full post at: How Windows 10 data collection trades privacy for security]

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I read that at Security level telemetry restrictions, Windows Update no longer works. Is that for a PC directly accessing the internet or for one that has access to a WSUS server?

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One thing that has to be mentioned that I think is a very common misconception:

“Microsoft used telemetry in previous versions of Windows and Windows Server to check for updated or new Windows Defender signatures, verify Windows Update installations, and gather reliability information through the RAC (Reliability Analysis Component) and Windows CEIP (Customer Experience Improvement Program).”

Yes, if you installed the updates that applied those changes and/or you opted-in to CEIP (which was opt-in, not opt-out). Big difference here.

I realize that my phone is basically a walking telemetry machine, but I accept that by using it (and can choose to opt-out if I want). Smartphones for the most part, always have been telemetry machines; it’s ingrained in the experience and a “fact of life”.

Telemetry on a PC in the OS is not a “fact of life”; this is arguably the first time users have practically 0 choice in a Windows version that has telemetry. We always had choices before – now, we don’t. You are opt-in no matter what you want; the only choice you have is ‘how much’.

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Very good post and this may clarify for some users what the telemetry does and what it does not.

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@Rick This is not true and it would defeat the purpose. How to set a global configuration to security when security updates cannot be installed?

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I *choose* to continue to use older Windows versions because of Microsoft’s abandonment of these basic privacy and security ideals.

-Noel

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re: “[if] you opted-in to CEIP (which was opt-in, not opt-out).”

Actually, that was not my experience with my Windows 7 computer that I have had for about 3 years.

As soon as I got it, I opted out of CEIP (I made sure that the CEIP settings that I could locate were all set up to be “opt out”),

but last year I found in the “Task Scheduler” in “System Tools” that several CEIP things were still running and set up as tasks. I had to cancel them individually in the Task Scheduler. This is even though in the main settings area for CEIP, my CEIP choice was still set to “no, I don’t want it”.

Most non-techie computer owners do not even venture into the Task Scheduler, so their computers will probably have those things turned on, too.

Additionally, about 3 months ago here on AskWoody.com, someone pointed out in a thread that there was a setting about sending info back to Microsoft which is automatically on that a lot of people don’t know about –
all I remember is that it was in the Action Center, and my computer’s setting was also turned on to send data to MS, which I had not known about before.

So I don’t think that Windows 7 has been innocent of engaging in hidden telemetry.

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Thats an awful lot of data Micro$noop is sat on all across the board at what ever level they allege thay collect at. Whose to say that in times of financial stringency that it may well be put to work….

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The only real way to know what telemetry does and does not do is to analyze the packets being sent over the wire.

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From the InfoWorld article,
“Microsoft isn’t merely hoovering up large amounts of data because it can.
The company has repeatedly reiterated its stance that Windows 10 does not collect the user’s personal data, but rather anonymized file data….”

Security experts have repeatedly reiterated how “anonymized” data can sometimes reveal a lot about individuals – even enabling them to be personally identified in some cases – and can betray their reasonable expectations of privacy.

—-
“Microsoft says it tries to avoid collecting personal information, but it can happen.”

Well, that’s okay then, they have good intentions at least. (smirk)

—-
“Microsoft’s plan to put advertising on users’ lock screens and Start screens—and block IT admins from disabling them—has also fanned the flames of security fear.
It’s worth noting that Windows is not intentionally collecting functional data, such as the user’s location when the user is looking at local weather or news. The application may collect such data, but not the Windows 10 operating system….”

Well that’s okay then — Microsoft is only allowing other companies’ applications to collect certain types of our personal data, while not letting us opt out of that.

But they are not keeping that particular data themselves, so it’s not really anything to do with Microsoft, they are an innocent third party, so we should rest easy and just let them all carry on with this, since they know best. (smirk)

—
“Of course, Microsoft collects personal information from its own applications.
Cortana is such an example, but users can turn off Cortana completely.”

I’ve read so many times on AskWoody.com that Cortana can’t be turned off completely. Apparently it makes you think that you’ve turned it off, but underneath, it’s still doing data collection/recording/transfer. Is that right?

—
“They may have to pay the price of higher admin costs if they use the lowest telemetry level (Security), but only if they choose to do so.”

It’s the consumer’s fault, it’s the organization’s fault,
we are shooting ourselves in the foot by getting too concerned about larger issues,
Microsoft is just a benign dictator and of course they have our welfare as the highest priority — if we don’t follow their rules, and as a consequence we have to pay more because we are choosing to buck the system, this is our own fault for being too big for our boots… oh dear, silly us

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I realise that phones are walking auto-spying machines, and therefore I don’t have any. Well I have one, but it’s an old cheapo clunker that does not even connect to the Internet and is always off, just for emergencies. Also, I have the cheapest plan on the planet.

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Yes, it looks like Cortana keeps on tickin’, even after you’ve turned off its interface.

I have no idea what it’s doing there in the background, but it’s still playing.

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That’s exactly right. And since all of the data is encrypted (as it should be), we’re left with a lot of unknowns.

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Wireshark has decrypting capability…

https://www.google.com/#q=decrypting+packets+in+wireshark

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Yes but, if I understand correctly, the Windows telemetry encryption goes way beyond SSL.

If somebody knows better, I’d sure like to hear about it!

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This Infoworld article looks like FUD to me, ie if u reduce the level of M$’s Telemetry & Data collection or wanna protect yr privacy, yr Win 10 Ent cptrs will not be secure or will be easily infected by malware/ransomware.

In enterprises, most malware/ransomware infections are from employees n executives foolishly downloading dubious stuffs, visiting illicit websites, clicking on infected links, opening infected email attachments or being phished/scammed/social engineered by hackers.
……. So, the proper filtering of employees’ web activity by Admins is more effective than M$’s nearly all-encompassing Telemetry & Data collection or phone-home “feature” in Win 10, which also use a lot of cptr resources n Internet data.
.
In Win XP/Vista/7/8.1, users could opt out of all Telemetry n Data collection by M$ n even disable Windows Update. Similarly, users could opt out of T&D collection by 3rd-party anti-virus software. Not so for Win 10.
……. Why can’t cptr users opt out completely from T&D collection by OS sellers like M$.? Though less safe/secure, is it a crime to keep yr house door/gate or car doors unlocked during the day while it is being used.? What happened to the free world of USA.?
.
There is a good likelihood that the Telemetry & Data collection in Win 10(= spyware.?) also provide legal access to the NSA, who are very interested in the identity, data n communications of their targets/suspects.
……. T&D collection may also be open to abuse by the NSA, M$ n rogue employees of M$, eg political targeting, spying for trade secrets of business rivals, spying on pretty girls undressing, spying for stock insider info, etc.

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There’s an undertone to all this, and that’s that somehow it’s okay to send information about you and your computer usage if it’s been sanitized.

Uh, no – sorry – it’s not.

Even if all that is logged and stored in a server somewhere was “computer at 12.34.56.78 logged on successfully” that’s an invasion of privacy. I simply don’t care to share that information with anyone. It’s none of your business, Microsoft!

A classic ploy:

On a scale of 1 to 10, if 1 is perfectly acceptable, 3 is unacceptable, and 10 is outrageous, then do something at level 10 and respond to the outcry by backing down to 3. Point out how much better 3 is, and how you’re a real hero for listening.

Iterate until you get the acceptable level way up there, to suit your business goals. Boom, before you know it, society’s norms are changed.

There is no reason whatsoever that anyone needs to know whether or when I log into my computer. I paid for the software, hardware, and electricity, not to mention the communications link, which I would prefer to be available for MY use 100.0%.

There might be those who would say that if my system doesn’t report in then Microsoft won’t be able to make the software better. Yet *I* can write up and report problems just fine, thank you. And let’s ask: Better for whom? With all the telemetry we have had to deal with lately, in just what ways are they’re making Windows better for users?

There could be those who might say that if my system doesn’t inform mother Microsoft about what I’m running then they won’t be able to make everyone’s computing experience more secure. Bunk. Don’t look now, we’ve been inundated with telemetry for years, yet I’m not hearing that Windows today is more secure from ANYONE but Microsoft’s Marketeers. Has there been an observed drop in infections lately?

Why can I, a mere user, set up a system that’s WAY more secure than an out-of-box Windows system? Seriously.

Remember when Microsoft used telemetry to justify things like removing the Windows Backup UI? “Only 6% of people use it, according to telemetry, so we’re dropping support.” That was back in the time of Win 8. What a resounding success! Not.

All food for thought.

Just don’t let them warm the pot until you’re boiled alive.

-Noel

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The Task Scheduler system tasks are not normally configured by the end user and if they are reset, this is quite normal. It is something that happens with the tasks associated with Windows Update in Windows 10.
If you read the description of those tasks, you would see that if CEIP is set to opt-out, those tasks do nothing and this is correct, unlike the information posted here.
What are not subject to CEIP and are not described anywhere as being part of CEIP are the tasks implemented by KB2952667 – those are under Application Experience.

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As I understand it, all those mechanisms for decryption work if you have the original certificate and use a kind of man-in-the-middle injection. I am not a security or networking specialist, so the wording may not be the most accurate.

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Microsoft continues to expand Windows 10 as a revenue generation platform featuring privacy-bashing, data-mining and advertising serving.

In retrospect, its clear that the “free” upgrade to Windows 10 is extracting a significant price.

I will never run Windows 10 on my primary systems.

The “pay for privacy” notion put forth by the InfoWorld article is an illusion. MS is free to change their rules for their system at any time they choose. The MS position is the same one that is taken by bad bosses everywhere…”If you don’t like it here, then quit.”

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+1 LT

“You drown not by falling into a river, but by staying submerged in it.” – Paul Coelho

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Thank you to the lovely lady who explained how and why Microsoft is collecting, correlating and analyzing benign data from every Windows device in every home, business, enterprise, school and government on the planet. The devices being PC desktops, laptops, tablets, phones, wearables, fridge magnets, IOT core and rasberry Pi devices and X-boxes.

What about the storing of the data? It kinda got missed in the explanation. Let’s assume the data store is in several Microsoft secure datacenters stacked with Azure cloud servers…

– Is data passed between datacentres?

– When datasets are shared with Microsoft Partners and/or Business Customers how is it secured? Do they store the datasets on their (secure) systems and if so, what happens to those copies afterwards?

-Is data deleted after it is no longer relative?

-What is Microsoft’s policy concerning stored telemetry data?

– Has it been published ?

– In the off chance that Microsoft ever sold the Windows branch of the company or Microsoft were to ever go into bankruptcy, will the data be completely erased or will it be monetized as part of the sale? ( ref: when RadioShack was bought out, the buyer got all customer information as part of the deal).

– If hackers successfully accessed the telemetry data in its correlated or analyzed form, and threatened to release it or sell it on, what would Microsoft’s response be? What if was held for ransom?

– Do Microsoft IOT devices send telemetry data that includes the non-Microsoft devices on the home or business network?

– What data is sold to advertisers ?

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If you knew Fahmida, you’d realize that “benign” isn’t exactly how she would describe it. 🙂

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I read the other day that huge quantities of data are now being transferred between data centers by container truck. Apparently this is faster than over the Internet. We’re talking petabytes and exabytes (sp?) of data.

So here is the latest way data can be stolen, and it is well known to organized crime.

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An early paragraph in this story says, “The information collected is used to improve various components in Windows Defender, such as Application Guard and Advanced Threat Detection (these two features are available only to customers with Windows 10 Enterprise with Anniversary Update and Enterprise E5 subscriptions).”

I find MS explanation rather hard to understand. Virtually every review done of Anti-Malware programs ranks Windows Defender at the bottom of the list. Other anti-malware programs are able to outperform Windows Defender, and yet they aren’t “spying” on us the way MS is. If other anti-malware programs can create superior programs without spying, why does MS need to spy?

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I assume you meant KB2952664. KB2952664 states:
“This update performs diagnostics on the Windows systems that participate in the Windows Customer Experience Improvement Program.” My tests at https://www.askwoody.com/2016/care-to-join-a-win7-snooping-test/ seem to indicate that Microsoft’s claim in KB2952664 is false. I sent my results (and some other telemetry-related questions) to telmhelp [at] microsoft.com, and got a quick response with some case numbers assigned. I’ll post Microsoft’s responses if and when I get them.

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See section “How is telemetry information handled by Microsoft?” at https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/netro/2015/09/09/windows-7-windows-8-and-windows-10-telemetry-updates-diagnostic-tracking/.

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> “Has there been an observed drop in infections lately?”

Yes: 58% less ransomware infections on Windows 10 than Windows 7:

http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-windows-7-is-way-more-exposed-to-ransomware-than-windows-10/

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Only Windows Update failures would be affected, not WSUS:

“Note
If your organization relies on Windows Update for updates, you shouldn’t use the Security level. Because no Windows Update information is gathered at this level, important information about update failures is not sent. Microsoft uses this information to fix the causes of those failures and improve the quality of our updates.

Windows Server Update Services (WSUS) and System Center Configuration Manager functionality is not affected at this level,”

https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/itpro/windows/manage/configure-windows-telemetry-in-your-organization

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Don’t worry, the bad guys will catch up soon.

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But I wonder about the baselines in that report.

For example, there’s much talk of Edge, but almost nobody uses Edge. The SmartScreen Filter closely resembles Google’s Safe Browsing feature. Edge’s sandboxing of Flash is great, but eliminating Flash is better still.

The key graph in Microsoft’s white paper shows A Win10 ransomware “encounter rate” of 0.3% in July 2016, compared to Win7’s 0.7%. I wonder if those comparisons are apples-to-apples. For example, do they both count current versions of Chrome (the most popular browser) run on Windows Home or Pro? Or do they compare IE on Win7 Home with Edge on Win10 1607 Enterprise (the only combination with ATP)?

Those are important distinctions – and the main reason why I didn’t cover that report when it came out.

Ransomware is a horrendous problem. I’d like to see more detailed, independent reports – I’m not talking about NSS Labs, which is heavily funded by Microsoft and has pulled of this kind of thing before – but real, independently verifiable testing.

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Also see section “How is telemetry data handled by Microsoft?” at https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt668436(v=vs.85).aspx.

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I expect more from a “personal” computer. NEVER 10.

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> “But I wonder about the baselines in that report.
For example, there’s much talk of Edge, but almost nobody uses Edge.”

30% of 400 million is a few more than almost nobody.

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Have you actually tried? There is no block for any type of updating at all. It is only on Microsoft’s wish list for everyone to allow telemetry to happen, but otherwise Windows Update is not affected, either from the Microsoft servers or WSUS.
Other Group Policies may affect online updating, but those are not related to the level of telemetry.

Computer ConfigurationAdministrative TemplatesWindows ComponentsWindows UpdateRemove access to use all Windows Update features

or the hammer approach

Computer ConfigurationAdministrative TemplatesSystemInternet Communication ManagementInternet Communication SettingsRestrict Internet Communication

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Yes, thank you for noticing. It was only a typo.

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This article starts “For those of you who’ve avoided upgrading to Windows 10 so far, Microsoft has offered some scary ransomware numbers to prove it’s in your interests to do so.”
Well there’s a surprise! They didn’t con enough people with GWX so now they’ll try a fear tactic. If anyone believes any self-serving numbers MS put out then they’re living in cloud-cuckoo-land.

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This is because the Windows 10 users are generally more computer literate than all the other users 🙂

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“Edge’s sandboxing of Flash is great, but eliminating Flash is better still.”

For a really useful outcome, Flash should be sandboxed in IE, because Edge is not used by almost anyone.
Saying that, I actually disable sandboxing of Flash in Firefox, because otherwise it crashes or causes too much load. But by default I have Flash disabled.
Even BBC bbc.co.uk has moved on from Flash and there are not many videos in Flash left on the site at the moment.

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She could have fooled me with that article.

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I thought she did very well, with a balanced non-opinionated presentation.

I inject opinions all over the place… but I’m more of an advocate.

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Except that quitting win is not feasible/affordable buying groceries from a next store.

As a default monopoly Ms should be regulated not allowed to abnegate their responsibilities and exploit its captive users.

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?

Source of the 120 million number?

I’m looking at the usage figures (which are subject to all sorts of oddities, of course) and they only show 5% (NetMarketshare) and 3% (StatCounter). My conclusion is that very few people use either.

I don’t think I know anyone who uses Edge consistently. Occasionally, yes, but it’s still half baked.

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Both styles are welcome and needed… and we certainly appreciate yours.

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Nicely put, Noel.

Every time I poke into Windows 7 and kick tyres, I’m amazed at how incredibly bad it is at doing some basic things that should be a no-brainer for an OS.

For instance : search. Search does not work. It’s not me saying this, it’s some people with vastly more knowledge than me, who’ve studied the issue thoroughly and wrote up lengthy blog posts to that effect. You follow MS syntax to a t, write a request that should dig up a file you know is there, and it does not find it. Just wrapping your head around how Windows 7 search is supposed to work is a huge task per se, and then if you apply MS quirky concepts they don’t work anyway.

Then you pull some lowly piece of freeware from the ether such as Everything, and it finds… everything, before you’ve finished typing your request.

Copy. Copy is broken. Try to copy any serious amount of files from one place to another, and Windows Explorer calls it quits. You need to use some other freeware designed in mommy’s basement (Tera Copy), which is fast and works faultlessly.

Just browsing and displaying files. Microsoft has taken away a basic, much-needed feature such as showing the size of folders, and devised devilishly complex methods in order to simply adjust the display of files and folders to your liking.

You have to use third-party file managers such as Directory Opus in order to realise how much is lacking from Windows Explorer, and how Microsoft has failed at devising new features that people actually need, as opposed to eye candy and flashy “innovations” such as Cortana which nobody wants.

And they need “telemetry” to understand how badly they have failed ? Give me a break…

That reminds me of smart-aleck corporations delivering rotten service, then immediately bombarding you with email surveys requesting feedback about the quality of the “user experience”. What about giving precise answers to what the customer actually asked, and being a tad polite in the process ? Has the world dumbed down so much that we need “surveys” and “telemetry” to alert people to the blindingly obvious ?

Be stupid, be passive-aggressive, deliver a broken product, and then steal people’s data to monetize it on top of that.

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That’s why I said only failures are affected. If I’m using Windows Update and an update fails, I prefer that Microsoft should know about it. I wish more software was designed to “snoop” in this way.

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3-5% is of all users, not Windows 10 users.

Edge was used by 25% of Windows 10 users six months ago: http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-usage-continues-to-rise-but-users-say-no-to-the-edge-browser/
and it will have increased now with extensions.

I don’t now use any browser other than Edge.

What is still half-baked about it?

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Edge is used by millions. Get used to it.

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Ed’s article says “more than three out of four Windows 10 users are choosing an alternative browser, despite Microsoft’s best efforts to make Edge the default in Windows 10.” And Ed used numbers from DAP, which only measures access to US government sites.

We’re mixing apples and oranges and orangutans, and the only organization that has “real” Edge data isn’t saying anything.

Although I’ll now have to admit that I DO know one person who actually uses Edge. 🙂

What’s wrong with Edge? Dan Grabham and Mary Branscombe talked about it a couple of days ago in TechRadar.

From my point of view, Edge has failed because:

(1) Microsoft released Edge at least a year before it was ready for prime time
(2) Very, very few extensions exist (I count 16, with lots of junk)
(3) Nobody trusts Microsoft

Point 3 may be a bit of an exaggeration, but not by much.

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Computer security comes mainly from safe/secure/non-foolish behavior by the users when on the Internet n not by “bullet-proofing” or hardening the OS thru telemetry n data collection, eg downloading dubious files/software, opening strange email attachments, visiting illicit or insecure websites, etc.
……. Just like for home security n personal security, there is nothing much the govt/police can do if foolish people leave their homes unlocked n unattended, venture into dark alleys n get robbed, raped or murdered. Similarly for those greedy people who got scammed, hooked on drugs, commit suicide or girls who fall in love with an evil guy. In life, it’s mostly caveat emptor.
……. Do the US citizens need to give up their privacy in order for their govt to be able to provide security to them, ie allow their govt to spy or telemetry them.? = no.
.
Maybe, people need to get a license b4 they can operate a cptr, like for driving licenses.
.
Likely, Telemetry n Data collection by M$’s Windows is to provide legal access to the NSA, n not for cptr security. The above Infoworld article is to hoodwink the users. In return for collaborating with the NSA, M$ get legal protection from the US govt, ie won’t be prosecuted for any monopolistic or abusive business practices.

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+1

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Win 7 *does* have hidden telemetry, at least as far as the CEIP goes, and probably much further than that.

I.e., if you opt-out of CEIP, either during a fresh install or after, and then run an app like Anti-Beacon (as I did), you’ll find that only 2 or so of 7 or so CEIP settings have actually been blocked.

That was my experience, at any rate.

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@ ch100 ……. Then, why the need for M$ to make Win 10’s Windows Update mandatory auto-update.? Didn’t M$ shills say that mandatory auto-update was to cater for Win 10 users who are mostly Dummies or cptr illiterate.?

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I didn’t think it was balanced, in the sense of presenting the better arguments of the various opposing sides equally,

and I felt that nearly all of the article could have been taken directly from a Microsoft ad/brochure or marketing officer, and therefore it seemed to have a strong underlying opinion: in favor of what Microsoft is doing, and pooh-poohing the concerns of certain customer groups.

But it won’t allay the concerns of most of the customer groups who do have concerns, because it doesn’t give any reassurances that they haven’t already heard and dissected.

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Yes, it’s something like a public utility (such as electricity provision) at this point.

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@MrBrian,

What was their claim in 2952664, and what about it has appeared in your testing to be false?

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@CH100,

Are you saying my information is incorrect? I’m not sure what information “posted here” that you are referring to.

—-
The following link is about one of the problems with the *computer-wide* CEIP’s not being totally off,
even when the computer owner has set CEIP to be “off” in its main setting facility:

https://www.askwoody.com/2016/microsoft-snooping-through-office/

—
In that thread, you will find my descriptions of my own problems with CEIP in comment number 4 (that was when I was using “D.” as my username)

And comment number 5 is also by me, where I refer to even further mentions on AskWoody.com by other contributors here (as well as by me) about how CEIP does not stick to the main CEIP setting.

========
That thread had a post by you (CH100):

“It is all over the place and many times labelled in a counter-intuitive manner.

I remember doing the work for Office 2013 for a managed environment few years ago and I was amazed what I found, especially that it was not so common practice at that time.

It was a personal effort not being required by the business to do it, for which the main purpose was in fact to reduce the Internet traffic in a multi-user environment to enhance the performance.

There are various hidden options of which some of them can be set only through the Registry or Group Policy if I remember well.

At the end of the day it may not be worth the effort. Either accept that Microsoft will collect some information and trust them that they are not personal or use different software, for which there is no guarantee that it does not use the same type of data collection.

It is important to be aware that it happens though and this is why posts like this one from Woody are very useful.”

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I understand now, you are right.

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“Yes: 58% less ransomware infections on Windows 10 than Windows 7”

Well, yes – mainly because there are (at least) twice as many computers in the world running Windows 7 as there are running Windows 10 at the moment.

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“Microsoft’s data shows…”

Oh, right. Microsoft said it, so it MUST be true.

Maybe the stats from people who fix other folks’ computers would be more believable. Those who I know claim Win 10 has greatly increased their work.

-Noel

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Right, and Win 10 needs every bit as much 3rd party software to make it work right as its predecessors.

Scratch that, it needs even MORE.

-Noel

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>Point 3 may be a bit of an exaggeration, but not by much.

Yeah, really it’s less than nobody.

-Noel

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I *choose* to continue to use older Windows versions because of Microsoft’s abandonment of these basic privacy and security ideals.

Yes, indeed. Even with the older releases, you’ve really got to work at it to completely shut down the snooping, and it’s a rather messy and unclean business.

It’s clear, I think, that Microsoft regards user privacy as optional now. For all their reassurances, and the support of its many apologists fans, Windows 10 is simply not designed to use the network with your consent.

That’s a shame. A terrible, terrible shame. 🙁

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That was scaled correctly – they’re talking about infections per machine – but there’s no information about the environments.

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+1

Cynics are always important, especially in this business.

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KB2952664 states:
“This update performs diagnostics on the Windows systems that participate in the Windows Customer Experience Improvement Program.”

My tests at https://www.askwoody.com/2016/care-to-join-a-win7-snooping-test/ show that when Windows Customer Experience Improvement Program setting = No, running of scheduled task Microsoft Compatibility Appraiser (which is added by installation of KB2952664) seems to cause the Diagnostics Tracking Service to send data to Microsoft telemetry within 30 minutes of completion of Microsoft Compatibility Appraiser. Also, when Windows Customer Experience Improvement Program setting = No, task Microsoft Compatibility Appraiser can use nontrivial CPU and disk resources; Woody has mentioned this before. Both of these are violations of what KB2952664 implies, in my opinion.

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Neither of these apply to HOME users.

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Why would those sections from those pages not apply to home users? 🙂

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What is the base of
“Other anti-malware programs are able to outperform Windows Defender, and yet they aren’t “spying” on us the way MS is. If other anti-malware programs can create superior programs without spying, why does MS need to spy?”

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Office is an application which does not have to comply with the Operating System CEIP settings. In fact Office has its own settings related to the traffic back home.
Like third-party antiviruses which don’t even tell you what they do, but they are likely to snoop a lot more than Microsoft.

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What makes Anti-Beacon authoritative? It just provides an opinion of their authors.

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>”And Ed used numbers from DAP, which only measures access to US government sites.”

And NetMarketShare and StatCounter.

>”What’s wrong with Edge? Dan Grabham and Mary Branscombe talked about it a couple of days ago in TechRadar.”

Quite a glowing review.

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I believe that I have found an alternate method :). See https://www.askwoody.com/2016/care-to-join-a-win7-snooping-test/comment-page-1/#comment-110035.

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I think PKCano’s post is in reference to the technical understanding and the standard way of operating of the home users.
Technet and MSDN articles are meant to be read by IT Professionals and unfortunately those home users who read them and do not see the whole picture make unfortunate decisions based on incomplete information.

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Sebby, I totally agree with you.

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Hey, how did you get highlighting and the crossy-outy font in a post here?
🙂

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MrBrian,
Thank you for explaining that.
I recall that the sneakiness and subterfuge have been mentioned before.
I am disappointed but not surprised that they would do this.

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@ch100,

Are you saying that it is an “opinion”, but not a factual observation, when Manaka’s Anti-Beacon app reports to him/her that “only 2 or so of 7 or so CEIP settings have actually been blocked”?

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@CH100,

When you say,
“If you read the description of those tasks, you would see that if CEIP is set to opt-out, those tasks do nothing”, I’m just not sure that is correct.

As an example, I am looking in Computer Management and here’s one task that did not “do nothing”, but rather it was running “successfully” every day on my computer for a year, even though I had opted out of CEIP a year earlier when I first bought my computer:

—–
ProgramDataUpdater

MicrosoftWindowsApplication Experience

Collects program telemetry information if opted-in to the Microsoft Customer Experience Improvement Program
—–

Why would it state that it had run “successfully” every day for a year, giving precise times, even though I had not opted-in to the CEIP?

Are you saying that it was doing nothing each time that it said it had run successfully?

After I disabled it specifically in Task Scheduler a year and a half ago, it has not run since.

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It is an opinion that those tasks should be blocked.

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Edge may be used by millions, but it’s consciously avoided by the overwhelming majority of Windows 10 users. Get used to that.

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For an excellent inside look at what tasks are running (including hidden tasks), try Nirsoft’s free
Task Scheduler Viewer…

http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/task_scheduler_view.html

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@ ch100 ……. No, it’s not an opinion of the Spybot Anti-beacon’s author that those tasks should be blocked, but rather the author giving Win 7/8.1/10 users the choice whether they want to install the program to block hidden/opaque Telemetry n Data collection by M$, who hv removed this choice from Windows users.
……. There is also mandatory auto-update in Win 10 = user choice removed.

Similarly for the 3rd-party program GWX Control Panel, where Win 7/8.1 users had the choice to install this program if they do not want to be auto-upgraded to Win 10 by M$, esp thru sneaky tactics.
……. For many Win 7/8.1 users, GWX Control Panel or Never10 was a Godsend.

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Just as a matter of interest I thought I would mention that the week before last I did a bit of housekeeping/maintenance on my laptop, and amongst other things I evoked DiskCleanup and found a heap of folders/files hidden with gbs of space used. When looking at them I saw 2 folders with files which were supposedly ready to be sent to MS for reporting.
Maybe that is what you are seeing when you say you see the Report as “Successful”.. I have CEIP turned off as well as having Spybot AntiBeacon running… so to my mind Win7 has performed the ‘task’ and records it as successful……… but isn’t able to send it home…. and it sits on your computer waiting!!!
Must admit I haven’t looked at Task Scheduler so that part has not been disabled as yet, so if it were to be.. possibly the said folder wouldn’t build up with all those files waiting.
Just a thought! LT

“Life is a tragedy when seen in close-up, but a comedy in long-shot.” – Charlie Chaplin

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Another way to write the opening of that article would be “Microsoft uses consumers as beta testers and QA in order to provide a better and safer experience for corporate customers”

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I believe that’s an accurate assessment of the situation. It’s the backbone of the “Current Branch for Business” technique.

https://www.askwoody.com/2016/what-it-means-win-10-anniversary-update-reaches-current-branch-for-business/

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WordPress has always supported minimal HTML in poster’s comments (and is rarely disabled by the site, happily). Here is a good list, with examples.

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Argh … except hyperlinks, on this site at least. 🙂

Here’s the page:
https://wpbtips.wordpress.com/2010/05/23/html-allowed-in-comments-2/

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I didn’t know that!

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Never claimed Anti-Beacon was “authoritative;” for me, it is a nice tool to have in the box. I trust the app, just as I trust Mr. Leonhard and his site here, as well as the voluminous information contributed by all of us here in the “hive mind.” I read/sift through and use what works for me. 🙂

We’re all “friends” / “compadres” here, yes? Semi-united in thumbing our collective noses at the combined irresistible force/immovable object monolith of Microsoft, who makes Goliath look like a puny has-been/never-was.

For those who do use Anti-Beacon, it appears v1.6 just popped today. I haven’t installed it yet, as I’m not sure whether to run the setup file I downloaded or just update within the program. Here’s the link:

https://www.safer-networking.org/2016/anti-beacon-1-6-available/

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Nice bit of kit, that. Thanks! 🙂

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Windows Error Reporting files?
It sound like those are .wer files which many users do not turn off or don’t know how to turn off and they keep building up in time reaching the sizes which you mentioned.

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+1 🙂

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Maybe someone here who understands the Task Scheduler can tell us what a “successful” report means for it —

If, in the main CEIP opt-out area, the user had already opted out of CEIP,

And if the Task Scheduler says that it has recently “successfully completed” a CEIP task, would the task actually be half-done on the computer, in limbo, never sent to Microsoft, or would it have been fully completed and sent to Microsoft?

Is there a way to double-check if the Task Scheduler reports have really been sent – is there any sort of other log that shows transmissions to Microsoft?

—-
[In my case, if it matters for knowing how my Task Scheduler would behave, I do not have Spybot Anti-Beacon running because of some negative/iffy things I read about it a couple of years ago after trying it for a few weeks (I don’t remember what exactly I read about it).]

—-
Other thoughts –

If Microsoft allows CEIP to be opted-out-of, then they should simply disable all CEIP-dependent tasks in the Task Manager, and not leave some of them enabled. (Even if the tasks are only “pretending” to successfully complete, and are not really being sent, which I would find odd.)

They should also make the one/initial/central opt-out choice effective across all Microsoft products on the computer that have opt-out choices in them — Windows, Office, Media Player, Help and Support, Action Center…
or, if that isn’t possible to do from just one opt-out selection point,
in the main CEIP opt-out selection box, they should clearly list all of the other Microsoft programs that the computer owner would need to set up her/his “opt-out” choice in.

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This is exactly what I said about Anti-Beacon. It is a nice tool for monitoring certain settings, but the recommendations reflect only the opinion of the author(s) of the software. They do not necessary mean they are the best practice.
My main reason to follow Woody is in relation to the original purpose of this site and this is related to the reliability (in the functional sense) of various updates which Woody has been monitoring for a very long time.
The telemetry discussions are only a distraction and I am not so interested in wasting time with what I find mostly as being non-sense.
What is a real problem though is the impossibility to turn Cortana off in the mainstream versions of Windows 10 and the difficult way of controlling forced updates in the same versions of Windows 10.
Cortana is not a bigger threat than Siri or equivalent technologies, the issue is that it cannot be easily turned off by those who wish to do so. Siri can be turned off but I don’t know about the other similar products from Google or Amazon.

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Thank you! Very useful. 🙂

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I manually ran 8 Windows 7 CEIP-related tasks while monitoring with Process Monitor. Each of those tasks except Microsoft Compatibility Appraiser appears to check for the status of CEIP in the registry soon after they are started.

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Thank you ch100……. guess they could have been that……. can’t remember now…. as I said it was during a tidy-up…….. and I only remembered it when poohsticks was referring to stuff that appeared to be still sent despite turning off CEIP.

It’s such a shame that this ‘culture’ that MS and others have brought about, making everyone so conscious of this snooping…. has more or less replaced the enjoyment and pleasure we should be experiencing in expanding ourselves in other directions. Just my 2 bits! LT

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ch100 said, “…telemetry discussions are only a distraction and I am not so interested in wasting time with what I find mostly as being non-sense.”

Supreme Court Jusice William O. Douglas said,
““Big Brother in the form of an increasingly powerful government and in an increasingly powerful private sector will pile the records high with reasons why privacy should give way to national security, to law and order […] and the like.”

Nonsense?

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Hey, I knew Bill Douglas. Talked with him a few times when I was a kid. Very … intricate, layered personality.

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