Interesting boot system/Windows problem

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Ok, here’s the story. First the short version. Often my computer doesn’t boot. It hangs while the Windows logo displays. Only a hard reboot via on/off restarts it. If I boot again the same thing happens, however if I enter the BIOS and save it (without having made changes) the system boots fine, every time (so far).

How I discovered this trick is too long a story to go into. What is going on here? :confused:

The system does boot normally at times by the way, and I think reboots work all the time, although I’m not sure of that.

It’s an Asus pc 4GB W7 64bit. However I had the same problem while running Vista and Win Server. It freezes completely, no warning beep or sign, no hard drive activity, no response to key presses or mouse. I’ve waited for 10 or more minutes just to see… nothing. Only a long press on the on/off button shuts it down. This has been going on for at least 6 months.

I’m pretty computer savvy (I do pc consulting), so I did a lot of testing, playing with device manager and attached devices. Several times I thought I’d found the culprit, a miscreant USB device or whatever, but not so, as the problem resurfaced eventually.

By the way, Windows does notice there was a problem booting as it suggests strongly that I run that useless fix it after a failed boot utility. That thing has never done anything but take huge amounts of time to end up saying “dunno, can’t fix it.” And so it did in this instance.

So, has anyone run across a similar problem or have ideas? I’ve tried searching on this, but it’s pretty difficult to figure out how to hone a boot problem search down to this issue, so I’ve not been successful.

Chris

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Any chance this could be a hardware issue, or perhaps a bios issue. It might be worth checking for bios updates. It also might be worth getting a voltage and temp monitoring app to keep an eye on things. I would also immedaitedly make a complete system Image in case a hard failure is around the corner. (run complete scans with your fav AV and AM apps just to rule that out prior to creating your image. I would also clean out ALL, or as many as you can find, temp files, including internet files, then defrag prior to creating your image.)

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I had the same type of problems with a Gateway laptop for several months. Turned out my hard drive was slowly failing.

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Any chance this could be a hardware issue, or perhaps a bios issue. It might be worth checking for bios updates. It also might be worth getting a voltage and temp monitoring app to keep an eye on things. I would also immedaitedly make a complete system Image in case a hard failure is around the corner. (run complete scans with your fav AV and AM apps just to rule that out prior to creating your image. I would also clean out ALL, or as many as you can find, temp files, including internet files, then defrag prior to creating your image.)

I can vouch for this type of issue. I had both a cd-rom and dvd drive my system. I started having “long” bootups and, when the computer was up and running, “frequent” appearances of the mouse pointer showing a cd image indicating the system was “busy” accessing a drive. Under normal conditions, this would not happen as access is typically quite quick.

For whatever reason, I decided to disconnect the dvd drive. After telling the BIOS not to expect to find the dvd drive, the system returned to “normal” bootup times and the cd image stopped appearing when trying to access any drive.

Along with checking for BIOS updates, try reflashing the BIOS as well as replacing the MB’s battery in case it is going dead.

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I have a PC running Windows 7 that just dies at varying times. Its extremely annoying. If I could fix this issue I would be really happy.

Another similar Windows 7 PC has boot problems occasionally. It does not detect the various hard drives. If I open the case and push the IDE cables and SATA cable the PC usually boots again. Really ridiculous. It will run well for a few weeks and then not boot.

If you solve your problem please let us know how.

Best of luck with it.

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Hi Guys, I’m replying to the most recent replies here. You guys aren’t paying attention to what I’ve written. 1. The computer was almost NEW when this issue first occurred and is still less than a year old and I have no OTHER or INTERMITTENT PROBLEMS (So it’s very unlikely that parts are failing due to age but if they were failing for some reason I would have INTERMITTENT or UNPREDICTABLE problems). Once I access the BIOS the computer boots very quickly (15 seconds in Win 7) and I have absolutely no problems, anomalies, anything once booted and I run a couple of heavy processing programs at times. It never dies, always accesses all attached and internal peripherals. It’s perfect and I’m very happy with it other than the boot issue. In fact at times I don’t shut it down for weeks, just put it to sleep to avoid having to reboot, never any problems. Also, I’m rarely online with that system so no Virus etc issues.

I’m not worried about it failing as I have several computers, and myriad backups. But I don’t see it failing, as I said I’m just curious and a bit annoyed. So don’t take offense and feel free to comment, but please pay attention to what I’ve written.

Chris

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Hi Guys, I’m replying to the most recent replies here. You guys aren’t paying attention to what I’ve written. 1. The computer was almost NEW when this issue first occurred and is still less than a year old and I have no OTHER or INTERMITTENT PROBLEMS (So it’s very unlikely that parts are failing due to age but if they were failing for some reason I would have INTERMITTENT or UNPREDICTABLE problems). Once I access the BIOS the computer boots very quickly (15 seconds in Win 7) and I have absolutely no problems, anomalies, anything once booted and I run a couple of heavy processing programs at times. It never dies, always accesses all attached and internal peripherals. It’s perfect and I’m very happy with it other than the boot issue. In fact at times I don’t shut it down for weeks, just put it to sleep to avoid having to reboot, never any problems. Also, I’m rarely online with that system so no Virus etc issues.

I’m not worried about it failing as I have several computers, and myriad backups. But I don’t see it failing, as I said I’m just curious and a bit annoyed. So don’t take offense and feel free to comment, but please pay attention to what I’ve written.

Chris

Interesting point re using Sleep mode (Win 7) 32 bit) as I have had some issues with that. My PC went ballistic a few times after using Sleep mode.

Now I avoid it.

Perhaps you too are experiencing some issue with that despite your ‘success’ with it?

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Interesting point re using Sleep mode (Win 7) 32 bit) as I have had some issues with that. My PC went ballistic a few times after using Sleep mode.

Now I avoid it.

Perhaps you too are experiencing some issue with that despite your ‘success’ with it?

No actually sleep mode has worked very well, flawlessly.

You know there are different settings, s1 through s4 or something, I forget the exact choices. You could look into that and try a different setting. On the other hand if you have some kind of electrical fault in your cables (or maybe it’s a grounding issue or an intermittent short) that would wreak havoc with sleep mode too.

Chris

Chris

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Hi Guys, I’m replying to the most recent replies here. You guys aren’t paying attention to what I’ve written. 1. The computer was almost NEW when this issue first occurred and is still less than a year old and I have no OTHER or INTERMITTENT PROBLEMS (So it’s very unlikely that parts are failing due to age but if they were failing for some reason I would have INTERMITTENT or UNPREDICTABLE problems). Once I access the BIOS the computer boots very quickly (15 seconds in Win 7) and I have absolutely no problems, anomalies, anything once booted and I run a couple of heavy processing programs at times. It never dies, always accesses all attached and internal peripherals. It’s perfect and I’m very happy with it other than the boot issue. In fact at times I don’t shut it down for weeks, just put it to sleep to avoid having to reboot, never any problems. Also, I’m rarely online with that system so no Virus etc issues.

I’m not worried about it failing as I have several computers, and myriad backups. But I don’t see it failing, as I said I’m just curious and a bit annoyed. So don’t take offense and feel free to comment, but please pay attention to what I’ve written.

Chris

My recommendation would be to put aside anything and everything you think you know, and have confirmed as working. Start with the basics again, making no assumptions what so-ever. In fact, its not a bad idea walk away from it for a day or two and focus on something else. I have had to check my knowledge (er, ego) from time to time and start from scratch when troubleshooting, and more often than not, I find something I missed. Based on what you have said about saving settings in the BIOS setup, I’m going to back to the battery. I’ve seen them flaky from the factory. Replacing it is the only way to confirm whether its bad or not. Its cheap, and quick.

Second, based on the fact that the same issue occurred with 3 different OSes loaded, and Windows is telling you there is an issue, the freeze sounds more like a driver or hardware issue. I once had a MB that took a static jolt when I was building the PC. I didn’t think it caused any damage because for a time it worked fine. Then sometimes it wouldn’t post, other times it would. I thought the floppy drive was bad because often even when it did post, the floppy didn’t always work. Replaced the drive, same issue. It turned out to be a bad floppy port. Removed the drive, never an issue. Didn’t need the floppy drive anyway, so problem solved.

In my case I knew what caused the issue. But electronic components can be damaged from amazingly small amounts of ESD, the ones you don’t know about are the ones that are scary. My point is that everything is suspect. Even new computers can have faulty components from the factory. I’ve seen $10k servers delivered with faulty back planes. Is your RAM 1 chip, or in pairs? If its more than one, remove it and swap slots. I’m assuming integrated video. If so and you have a slot and a spare card, disable the on board video and try the add on card. Disable the sound card, or remove it altogether if its not integrated. You see where I’m going with this. Leave nothing out. Its a painful process, but its the only way to get to the root of the issue.

I wish you the best on this!

Chuck

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I’m assuming you have no external devices connected, USB drives, eSATA drives, printers, ext. My laptop behaves very similar to our PC, if my eSATA drive it connected. I just leave it disconnected now unless I need it.

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My recommendation would be to put aside anything and everything you think you know, and have confirmed as working. Start with the basics again, making no assumptions what so-ever. In fact, its not a bad idea walk away from it for a day or two and focus on something else. I have had to check my knowledge (er, ego) from time to time and start from scratch when troubleshooting, and more often than not, I find something I missed. Based on what you have said about saving settings in the BIOS setup, I’m going to back to the battery. I’ve seen them flaky from the factory. Replacing it is the only way to confirm whether its bad or not. Its cheap, and quick.

Second, based on the fact that the same issue occurred with 3 different OSes loaded, and Windows is telling you there is an issue, the freeze sounds more like a driver or hardware issue. I once had a MB that took a static jolt when I was building the PC. I didn’t think it caused any damage because for a time it worked fine. Then sometimes it wouldn’t post, other times it would. I thought the floppy drive was bad because often even when it did post, the floppy didn’t always work. Replaced the drive, same issue. It turned out to be a bad floppy port. Removed the drive, never an issue. Didn’t need the floppy drive anyway, so problem solved.

In my case I knew what caused the issue. But electronic components can be damaged from amazingly small amounts of ESD, the ones you don’t know about are the ones that are scary. My point is that everything is suspect. Even new computers can have faulty components from the factory. I’ve seen $10k servers delivered with faulty back planes. Is your RAM 1 chip, or in pairs? If its more than one, remove it and swap slots. I’m assuming integrated video. If so and you have a slot and a spare card, disable the on board video and try the add on card. Disable the sound card, or remove it altogether if its not integrated. You see where I’m going with this. Leave nothing out. Its a painful process, but its the only way to get to the root of the issue.

I wish you the best on this!

Chuck

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I’m assuming you have no external devices connected, USB drives, eSATA drives, printers, ext. My laptop behaves very similar to our PC, if my eSATA drive it connected. I just leave it disconnected now unless I need it.

Hi Chuck, Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I agree with all of what you said and have done most of it. (By the way I have my systems on an very high quality surge suppressor (not MOV) and power conditioner/backup so surges better not have been an issue). As I mentioned somewhere here, I think it’s a driver or hardware issue myself. And I thought I’d narrowed it down a couple of times only to find out no such luck. It’s also possible the driver reinstalled (I have several usb devices used and not used depending… between several systems (it’s complicated).

At this time it’s just not worth the effort of starting from scratch for several reasons. First it’s an htpc type with outboard power supply, not meant to be opened (it has a sticker which says if removed guarantee void and it took me an hour just to figure out how to open it and I’m a pc consultant (yes I did open it, I was hoping to find an open SATA port inside).

Second, If I believed the battery was a problem (I don’t actually remember seeing a battery–could the BIOS be running on a capacitor?) I might eventually open it again, but I’m pretty sure I’d have some kind of other problem somewhere and I really don’t understand how entering the BIOS and then exiting it without making changes would cure the problem. If I don’t do this it will not boot when it’s being recalcitrant.

And third, opening the pc and taking it out of the setup and starting from scratch will take way much more time than my weekly or so BIOS restarts even if I do them for many years.

What I’m most curious about is why entering and exiting the BIOS should make it boot. WHAT IS HAPPENING There? Remember I don’t change anything, and it’s not set at it’s defaults. This has happened after I’ve made many changes in it, and when I’ve not made any? And it has never failed to boot or showed the least bit of quirkiness.

So, if you have any thoughts on that I’d love to hear–er read them.

Chris

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I have a PC running Windows 7 that just dies at varying times. Its extremely annoying. If I could fix this issue I would be really happy.

Another similar Windows 7 PC has boot problems occasionally. It does not detect the various hard drives. If I open the case and push the IDE cables and SATA cable the PC usually boots again. Really ridiculous. It will run well for a few weeks and then not boot.

Hey AudioPC

It sounds like you might have a bad cable, and moving it causes the break to make contact and of course internal vibrations of the computer could cause it to lose contact. I’d try to isolate the problem. It’s probably the cable to the boot drive, but I’d try to isolate the cable. Disconnect the other drives etc. The cable also may not be seated solidly, or the connector is loose.

Are you into Audio? I am. In fact the pc I’m having the boot problem with, I use mainly for audio.

Chris

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Hi, yes I’m into audio – hardware and software. I have about 7 computers. Mainly self built. Most run really well without any problems. Only two on Win 7 have issues.

My drive cables are definitely seated fully etc I used to do some IT stuff and have fixed many PCs.

The cables are also new. Not reused from some old machine.

Still there can be faults with new stuff. Unlikely though.

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Are you getting any error messages?
Does the operating system function without issue or error when it does boot up and run?

Check through the event viewer. Also check in the bios for an event type log.
Some bios’s have them and there’s a good chance Asus does. Consult your specific BIOS/motherboard documentation.

You could re-flash the same bios version, do a full bios restoration, or do an upgrade flash to the latest version to rule the bios out as a potential cause.

By the way, Windows does notice there was a problem booting as it suggests strongly that I run that useless fix it after a failed boot utility. That thing has never done anything but take huge amounts of time to end up saying “dunno, can’t fix it.” And so it did in this instance.

Please clarify the above quote
What specific tool/utility are you refering to?
What os are you running?
Are/do you have a dual boot setup?

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Hi all,

This is a general response. I’ve pretty much done all the things suggested in your messages–updated the BIOS and everything else, checked the hd, the system was nearly new when this issue first occurred. As I mentioned I’m using Win7. I do have a dual boot setup with Vista. I’ve reinstalled both etc. etc. The utility is whatever Windows runs automatically when one has a boot problem.

Have any of you, or has anyone ever had this problem and then been able to boot normally after accessing the BIOS without changing anything in the BIOS? The real question is, what is changing by my accessing the BIOS without making changes in it? Obviously something is, but what? Whatever it is, it is allowing me to boot. And by the way, the boot is quick and easy at that point.

Chris

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I have had a similar problem with ASUS and what I did, after shutting down, was pull the BIOS battery out of the motherboard. Then Unplug the PC and wait a few minutes and then put the battery back in and boot up. This sets the bios to it’s defaults.

After the computer booted normally I re-booted and then set my bios setting to what they were before clearing the bios.

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Chris,

I’d check the BIOS Battery, if not just replace it. Sounds to me like you’re loosing BIOS settings and they may be rescanned upon entering the BIOS thus solving your boot problem until the next time. YMMV.:cheers:

May the Forces of good computing be with you!

RG

PowerShell & VBA Rule!
Computer Specs

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Hi, Thanks guys, but there’s no problem with the BIOS battery. As mentioned I even flashed it and it does hold its settings. The system was almost new when this problem first started occurring. Besides Windows starts to load, it reads the drive for a while and then just stops dead. So I think it’s some kind of driver/hardware issue. Maybe an old driver and it just doesn’t know what to do with it and hangs. Still I can’t figure why rebooting and entering the BIOS but not doing anything there should get it running. But its done so faultlessly for 6 months at least. And just for yucks, it does work the first time occasionally.

I’d just love to hear from someone who’s had this exact problem and work around, and even better yet a good explanation for it. Meanwhile my computer works and I have others so it’s no big problem, just a bit of an annoyance but a much bigger curiosity.

Chris

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Another possibility of the cause: switching power supply circuit.

In laptop, I don’t mean the AC adapter or the battery. It is the on-board switching power circuit problem: marginal capability caused by the aging of components, specifically electrolytic capacitors.

When the switching supply power capability becomes marginal over time, it may not provide enough ‘juice’ to run the system. And you have a silent shutdown, as if some one ‘pulling the plug’.

A desktop PC maybe easier to explain. So let me use desktop PC as an example. A desktop PC has a switching power supply box (it rarely fails). It transforms 110Vac to various DC voltages to power the PC. (It rarely fails because the reserved power is quite high, as compared to nominal power.)

There is one more switching power supply. It is built into the motherboard. It supplies the massive DC power to the microprocessor quickly (micro-seconds), to satisfy transient loads by the processor. The on-board power circuit has a lot of electrolytic capacitors (mostly 10 of them: those stand-up cylindrical things very close to the the processor.

It is those electrolytic capacitors that are slowly failing. In turn, it cuts down the efficiency of the switching circuit. Simply put, power capability is losing over time. When the power circuit ‘overloads’, it shuts down.

In today’s ever increasing pressure on pricing, the design-in capability maybe too marginal to begin with.

If you used to plug in a lot of USB and other devices, try unplug them. Also dim the back light of the LCD screen as much as possible. This saves some power. Maybe it helps and you’ll be lucky to boot up with no problem … for a while.

Time to backup and get a new laptop or desktop PC. There is no repair, or cheap repair approach.

Additional note:
Recently (5-7 years ago), there is a batch of ‘bad’ quality electrolytic capacitors (for switching power supply circuit) in the world market. It has been more than 7 years and it is believed the supply are used up: into final products. (Sad). The slowly failing capacitors are already causing some failures of some products (TV, PC, etc.) Either they are repaired or counted as reaching its useful life. Some 1st generation plasma TVs are in this category; some PC and laptops as well.

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If you suspect a slowly failing hard drive, buy a copy of SpinRite and test your drives periodically. It is a fantastic program and a great investment.

Run msconfig.exe, go to the “Boot” tab and enable “OS boot information”. This will display drivers as they are loaded. If you are having a device or driver problem it will be indicated by a long(ish) pause or a freeze when the driver is loaded. It may not help you but I much prefer more information than less during boot.

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If you suspect a slowly failing hard drive, buy a copy of SpinRite and test your drives periodically. It is a fantastic program and a great investment.

Rjdegraff,

You’re right about SpinRite. It’s from Gibson Research isn’t it? I haven’t used it lately, but I used it a lot in the old days. A great program. I’m not worried too much about hds failing these days, particularly as they usually give you warnings if you know what to watch for. They’re so cheap and I have so many (too many) along with backups, I can always pop another in or whatever if one fails unexpectedly.

Chris

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Another possibility of the cause: switching power supply circuit.

In laptop, I don’t mean the AC adapter or the battery. It is the on-board switching power circuit problem: marginal capability caused by the aging of components, specifically electrolytic capacitors.

Hi Scaisson,

Thanks for your thoughts and explanation. I don’t think they apply to my situation, but it’s interesting info, and may actually apply to an old LCD tv I have that failed prematurely.

Chris

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Hi Chris,

About 7-8 months ago my computer start having problems completing the boot process. It would hang on the initial startup screen, and then sometimes it would start after a brief delay (1-2 minutes) and sometimes after 10 minutes delay. Usually I would end up pushing the on/off button after a short delay. It never started after hanging by pressing the reset button. It got worse as time progressed until one day I happened to notice in the bios setting that the 3.3 voltage reading was showing 2.6 volts. This reading would fluctuate between 3.2 and 2.6 while all the other voltage readings were A-OK. Just on a feeling I got from seeing this I replaced the PSU with a new spare I had. The old PSU was about 4 months old when I started having this problem.

VIOLA!!!!
No more problem! The reading on the new PSU now fluctuates from 3.2-3.3 and all the other voltages are within their expected range.

I also ran “CHKDISK :/ C” from the command prompt and found numerous disk errors which the program automatically fixed.

If you try this and it doesn’t help let me know as I have another suggestion that might do the trick. Hope this works for you.

Murray

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Hi Chris,

About 7-8 months ago my computer start having problems completing the boot process. It would hang on the initial startup screen, and then sometimes it would start after a brief delay (1-2 minutes) and sometimes after 10 minutes delay. Usually I would end up pushing the on/off button after a short delay. It never started after hanging by pressing the reset button. It got worse as time progressed until one day I happened to notice in the bios setting that the 3.3 voltage reading was showing 2.6 volts. This reading would fluctuate between 3.2 and 2.6 while all the other voltage readings were A-OK. Just on a feeling I got from seeing this I replaced the PSU with a new spare I had. The old PSU was about 4 months old when I started having this problem.

VIOLA!!!!
No more problem! The reading on the new PSU now fluctuates from 3.2-3.3 and all the other voltages are within their expected range.

I also ran “CHKDISK :/ C” from the command prompt and found numerous disk errors which the program automatically fixed.

If you try this and it doesn’t help let me know as I have another suggestion that might do the trick. Hope this works for you.

Murray

Hey Murray, I’ll have to see if my BIOS shows the voltage reading, I don’t remember at the moment. I have an outboard power supply, it’s an htpc. But if not I could test it with a VOM. Anyway I’ll check it out.

So how did you get yours booted when it was having the problem. If I understand you right you powered it down and then powered it up again and it would start? Or did you have to do the BIOS thing I described? I’ve not had any disk problems (I’ve run CHKDISK).

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts, and I’ll let you know if I can get a voltage reading.

Chris

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A neighbor had the same problem with his Gateway VISTA O/S. He returned it to Gateway and they sent him a replacement which had developed the same problem. He became so frustrated that he bought another computer. His Gateway had two hard drives and I suggested he wipe and format the second drive then install a retail version of Windows 7 creating a dual boot system during the install of Windows 7. He did and ran Windows 7 for a couple of weeks with no problems. We then accessed the drive where Vista was and copied data files he didn’t want to lose. Next we wiped and formatted the drive where Vista was located including all “bloatware” installed by Gateway as well as the recovery partition created by Gateway. This was done last summer and now several months later he is still up and running with no problems.
Junk1t

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A neighbor had the same problem with his Gateway VISTA O/S. He returned it to Gateway and they sent him a replacement which had developed the same problem. He became so frustrated that he bought another computer. His Gateway had two hard drives and I suggested he wipe and format the second drive then install a retail version of Windows 7 creating a dual boot system during the install of Windows 7. He did and ran Windows 7 for a couple of weeks with no problems. We then accessed the drive where Vista was and copied data files he didn’t want to lose. Next we wiped and formatted the drive where Vista was located including all “bloatware” installed by Gateway as well as the recovery partition created by Gateway. This was done last summer and now several months later he is still up and running with no problems.
Junk1t

Hi Junk1t, Thanks for the info. I did the same thing, installed a fresh W7 on a separate drive. Unfortunately that didn’t do it for me. But hey, I’m not frustrated just curious at this point. It just takes two boots to boot, (or if I go right to the BIOS just one with that extra step) then it’s all good and I just put it to sleep for a week or so.

Chris

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Chris

So how did you get yours booted when it was having the problem. If I understand you right you powered it down and then powered it up again and it would start? Or did you have to do the BIOS thing I described? I’ve not had any disk problems (I’ve run CHKDISK).

Getting it to boot was just a hit or miss situation. Sometimes it would boot after the 2nd or 3rd try and sometimes it would take 10 tries. This scenario of course would fit in with the voltage fluctuating. If I caught it at just the right time, when the voltage was high enough, then it would complete the boot process. There never was a consistent pattern that always worked. As far as accessing the bios after a non-boot situation, I now remember that doing that did work a couple times but I don’t remember if there was any consistency to that scenario and at the time I never recognized it as a possible solution.

As far as having disk problems, I also was not aware of any. I ran the disk check only as a safe guard because the non-boot problem was continuing to get worse. It found and fixed a couple minor errors that I suspected may have been caused by the system hanging up during the boot attempts. Anyway it’s good insurance to do it if changing the PSU works for you.

If you do try another PSU, read the voltage ratings on the side of the unit and make sure the new one has a higher capacity then the old one for each of the 4 voltage ratings.

I sure hope I”m not sending you on a wild goose chase, but your situation sure sounds exactly what I just went through. I only solved my problem about 2 weeks ago so it’s still very fresh in my mind (what’s left of it).:wub:

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If you do try another PSU, read the voltage ratings on the side of the unit and make sure the new one has a higher capacity then the old one for each of the 4 voltage ratings.

You Electrical Engineers out there can correct me if this is wrong but as I understand it it’s not the voltage specs as the PC components are specified for the +/-12V & +/- 5V leads. It’s the Wattage you want to increase so the current drain doesn’t pull the voltage down?:huh:

May the Forces of good computing be with you!

RG

PowerShell & VBA Rule!
Computer Specs

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Chris

If you do try another PSU, read the voltage ratings on the side of the unit and make sure the new one has a higher capacity then the old one for each of the 4 voltage ratings.

I sure hope I”m not sending you on a wild goose chase, but your situation sure sounds exactly what I just went through. I only solved my problem about 2 weeks ago so it’s still very fresh in my mind (what’s left of it).:wub:

No goose chase problem here, no geese anywhere in sight. I think you probably meant wattage rating wasn’t lower, but since I have no voltage problem the point is moot anyway. The BIOS registered dead steady voltages, 3.31 for the one in question.

As to figuring out how to boot my system consistently by accessing the BIOS. I thought it was a minor miracle that I figured that out, because to me it makes no sense at all. That’s why I’m so interested in hearing/reading an explanation. Unfortunately no one seems to have one, nor even notices that I’m asking that question, and that’s really what I’m most interested in, I’d just like to understand it.
Chris

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It’s funny how I keep getting detailed explanations on how to fix this thing, when

1. My main reason for starting this thread was to find out WHY accessing the BIOS without making changes should allow me to boot my computer, not HOW to fix it.

2. If someone did have a fix I wanted them to be able to explain why accessing the BIOS should allow one to be able to boot.

3. Besides I’ve done most everything people have said in the past (I did mention I was a pc consultant in an early thread, and I’ll just add now that I’ve been working with pcs since before the IBM pc was a reality (Apples, Apple 2 and 2es in other words) so hopefully I know basic trouble shooting. Still I continue to get new and somewhat repetitive fix it device when what I asking is WHY not how.

4. So, I’m not ungrateful for the advice although the above have sound it like it bit; I’m just saying I usually respond to all messages but I won’t be responding to anymore repetitive advice messages in this thread.

5. Any newcomer to this thread please, if you know or have an idea of the WHY mentioned in point 1, let me know.

Chris

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I’m in the same boat geezer. It’s sometimes hard to get my brain cell fired up in the morning.

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That is correct. PS’s are rated in wattage, i.e. 650 watt, 750 watt, etc. You want a PS strong enough that under load the various voltages do not get drawn down.

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Remove all devices from usb ports and all external peripherals.
Take the pc to barebones.

If you have a post motherboard tester and power supply tester use them – they are invaluable for an Engineer – saves hours of part swapping.

If it still freezes.
Remove all internal stuff – hard drives – floppy etc.
Try again!

If it still freezes then you have a motherboard or power supply issue.
From there its a case of removal and examining the capacitors for the old elctrolyte bulge problem and selective replacement.
Swap in a new power supply of higher wattage and test.

Before doing all this something I have found on Older Abit boards is:-
This can sometimes be caused by Usb Bluetooth arbitrator.
It can also be caused by el cheapo Usb flash storage dongles.
So removing all the usb stuff attached to the pc and trying might sort it.

Have you tried :-
Flash the bios to latest version?

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I have a vague memory of motherboard architecture (ahhh, the old days of enforced BIOS fiddling, usually to get HD’s and ISA slots working properly!), and I think it could possibly be the interaction between the CMOS and BIOS.

These are two connected, but separate, entities – the CMOS holds the BIOS info, and the BIOS reads the info from CMOS when the MB boots.

This is why the battery is called the CMOS battery, not the BIOS battery.

When you remove the battery, or short it’s connections, this clears (or ‘Defaults’) the CMOS info. When you then reboot, the BIOS is reading the ‘Default’ CMOS settings.

It sounds like when you exit the BIOS it is ‘rewriting’ the CMOS (even though it is set at ‘Default’), so the reboot works. ie, the CMOS battery has JUST ENOUGH juice to save and reboot, but not just reboot alone.

Which points to the CMOS not holding the info, because the battery is low, and the BIOS won’t boot properly if there’s no CMOS info, or it is corrupted.
Although you can see a Windows logo, the BIOS and OS are still communicating, and have probably got stuck on some corrupted BIOS info.

Change the CMOS battery, it’s not going to cost much, and is an easy fix.

If that doesn’t fix the problem, it is a serious MB hardware fault.

Good luck!

Will

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I’ve been reading up on the problem. Sounds kinda hit and miss as far as the advice given and the as yet unfound solution. Hopefully I can add some clarification through some absolutes.

First thing-no matter what you can start a pc without the CMOS battery. It will load the defaults and boot the system. This should always work. If you remove the battery completely, the system should still boot and this will tell you if it indeed was the battery.

Second, I was waiting for someone to mention memory. Have you swapped sticks or tried running with one stick? It could easily be the problem and is also very easy to test with spare sticks. Also don’t forget about the memory test available in most BIOSes, it might help.

Third, the only things your pc needs to start are a CPU, memory, and a power supply. If it has absolutely no problems posting with nothing else attached, -CMOS saves, reboots fine, etc- then it’s not any of these.

Fourth, what it really sounds like is that the pc is locking up right after the OS starts to load from the hard drive, possibly from BIOS junk, possibly from the hard drive firmware, possibly from an underpowered power supply. If the problem always happens at this point, and the bench test above checks out, there’s only a couple things left. One is that the BIOS has some kind of bug having to do with detecting the hard drive and needs a powered reboot to detect properly. Highly unlikely, but this could be tested with another (model) hard drive, just to see if it boots. It doesn’t have to boot fully (it will have the wrong drivers if out of another pc), it just has to make it to a windows error screen without locking up. Also, have you seen whether BIOS detects the hard drive on a powered down boot? It should show up on one of the BIOS screens. And does it show on a powered reboot? Or after a CMOS save? Knowing when the hard drive is detected by BIOS can help to diagnose. I would have doubted this scenario if I hadn’t had a Corsair Voyager 4GB flash drive lock up my XFX 680i. It will literally halt the boot process when plugged in (read-no permanent lock up), and will let the pc continue normally as soon as I remove it. This is on a fully updated BIOS and something as common as a flash drive (which I cannot boot off of- 🙁 ) But my example is consistent every time, your problem is not. (you could also try the hard drive in another pc, to make sure the problem goes away. If it doesn’t, you’ve got hard drive detection problems)

Finally, if all this checks out, then the most likely problem is the power supply. A lot of inconsistencies can be traced, not only to a fully broken power supply, but to ones that barely drop voltage under certain conditions. (motherboards require very consistent voltage) I bet for some reason, it’s dropping voltage on a clean, powered down boot, and requires a little time to ‘get up to speed’ so to speak. I would suggest to boot normally and test the power supply voltage at the same time as booting off the problematic hard drive. But you have a htpc, I’m not even sure if there are extra power supply molex leads for you to test with. It would definitely be revealing though to test the cold boot power supply voltages. And test them all the way into windows, not just during POST. The system starts drawing lots more power when you start to load the OS.

You can try all this, or just keep doing what you’re doing. If it’s not one of the above, it has to be the motherboard. But all indications are telling me that it’s not a ‘mechanical’ hardware issue, it’s ‘software’, as in BIOS/hard disk firmware/etc. Your stuff seems to be running too consistently for it to be a simple hardware issue. You have a simple workaround, it may be simpler to just keep using it. Even if you don’t end up needing any of this advice, hopefully it will help someone else. Good luck.

Edit-also you could swap the power supply to make sure, but I’m not sure on this one as I’ve never messed with a htpc. If it has the same plugs for the wall/pc, and at least the same wattage ratings, then go for it. A power supply will start dropping voltage when its amperage/wattage is exceeded. This is what you check for. Google for out of spec ratings, the voltage should be within 10-15% of rated at all times, if I’m not mistaken.

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I’ve been reading up on the problem. Sounds kinda hit and miss as far as the advice given and the as yet unfound solution. Hopefully I can add some clarification through some absolutes.

First thing-no matter what you can start a pc without the CMOS battery. It will load the defaults and boot the system. This should always work. If you remove the battery completely, the system should still boot and this will tell you if it indeed was the battery.

Second, I was waiting for someone to mention memory. Have you swapped sticks or tried running with one stick? It could easily be the problem and is also very easy to test with spare sticks. Also don’t forget about the memory test available in most BIOSes, it might help.

Third, the only things your pc needs to start are a CPU, memory, and a power supply. If it has absolutely no problems posting with nothing else attached, -CMOS saves, reboots fine, etc- then it’s not any of these.

Fourth, what it really sounds like is that the pc is locking up right after the OS starts to load from the hard drive, possibly from BIOS junk, possibly from the hard drive firmware, possibly from an underpowered power supply. If the problem always happens at this point, and the bench test above checks out, there’s only a couple things left. One is that the BIOS has some kind of bug having to do with detecting the hard drive and needs a powered reboot to detect properly. Highly unlikely, but this could be tested with another (model) hard drive, just to see if it boots. It doesn’t have to boot fully (it will have the wrong drivers if out of another pc), it just has to make it to a windows error screen without locking up. Also, have you seen whether BIOS detects the hard drive on a powered down boot? It should show up on one of the BIOS screens. And does it show on a powered reboot? Or after a CMOS save? Knowing when the hard drive is detected by BIOS can help to diagnose. I would have doubted this scenario if I hadn’t had a Corsair Voyager 4GB flash drive lock up my XFX 680i. It will literally halt the boot process when plugged in (read-no permanent lock up), and will let the pc continue normally as soon as I remove it. This is on a fully updated BIOS and something as common as a flash drive (which I cannot boot off of- 🙁 ) But my example is consistent every time, your problem is not. (you could also try the hard drive in another pc, to make sure the problem goes away. If it doesn’t, you’ve got hard drive detection problems)

Finally, if all this checks out, then the most likely problem is the power supply. A lot of inconsistencies can be traced, not only to a fully broken power supply, but to ones that barely drop voltage under certain conditions. (motherboards require very consistent voltage) I bet for some reason, it’s dropping voltage on a clean, powered down boot, and requires a little time to ‘get up to speed’ so to speak. I would suggest to boot normally and test the power supply voltage at the same time as booting off the problematic hard drive. But you have a htpc, I’m not even sure if there are extra power supply molex leads for you to test with. It would definitely be revealing though to test the cold boot power supply voltages. And test them all the way into windows, not just during POST. The system starts drawing lots more power when you start to load the OS.

You can try all this, or just keep doing what you’re doing. If it’s not one of the above, it has to be the motherboard. But all indications are telling me that it’s not a ‘mechanical’ hardware issue, it’s ‘software’, as in BIOS/hard disk firmware/etc. Your stuff seems to be running too consistently for it to be a simple hardware issue. You have a simple workaround, it may be simpler to just keep using it. Even if you don’t end up needing any of this advice, hopefully it will help someone else. Good luck.

Edit-also you could swap the power supply to make sure, but I’m not sure on this one as I’ve never messed with a htpc. If it has the same plugs for the wall/pc, and at least the same wattage ratings, then go for it. A power supply will start dropping voltage when its amperage/wattage is exceeded. This is what you check for. Google for out of spec ratings, the voltage should be within 10-15% of rated at all times, if I’m not mistaken.

Hi, Thanks for your long post, I missed your message too so my recent message isn’t referring to yours either.

Now, where to start. In the old days (whenever they were) computers didn’t start if their CMOS got erased, I know because, well you can imagine. Are you sure they will now? And (I asked this earlier but no one responded) is it possible that a capacitor is functioning as a battery in some of these sleek little htpcs. I did go into it once (it was a major hassle) and I don’t remember seeing a battery.

As to the HD being a problem, no problem, I’ve checked that.

The power supply issue interests me. Did you notice that earlier I mentioned that my system has an outboard supply, very similar to a laptop supply. The voltages are dead on and rock steady once the system is booted, however while booting I don’t know and I’m not sure how I’d test it.

Here is something that I have done, which should have given the power supply time to even out from its initial load. I’ve frozen the boot up screen process with a Cntrl S, and then let it continue. That made no difference either. And to confound matters further, the system has been booting perfectly the last several days. And it boots very quickly 10-15 seconds max.

Thanks for your thoughtful detailed post.

Chris

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Your problem interests me. Let me try one more time on PSU.

I used to load up the PSU (from a PC) to power up external USB devices, such as 3.5″ USB hard drives (consider that it is about 7W each, shouldn’t be load problem, isn’t it? Wrong!).
I get the 12V out the PC and power a 100W inverter (12Vdc to 110Vac). Plug a power strip to it. Then all the external devices to this strip. Voila! When the PC is on, every external devices are on. When the PC is off, everything is off the power grid. Green!
Before you yell: 100W inverter. Heavy loading! No, it only drives 2 USB drives. I was not using 100W full load. I did not even plug the LCD monitor to it.
The problem:
Works for a few months, then problem. I cannot boot (goes to BSOD). Going to Bios, then out, magically boots up OK.
Solution:
Turns out the PC’s PSU, even with high reserve power, cannot take the super transient load from the inverter. Inverter drags down the 12V output, causing BSOD or non-boot. If I go to BIOS first, the wait is long enough for the PSU to recover from transient overload. 12V stabilized. And the PC boots normally.
My measurement:
Inverter presents lots of capacitive loads. The transient power-on load is tremendous. It actually drags down the 12V input at power-up. Once it is running, though, the normal load is small.

My speculation re your case:
Maybe the outboard PSU, via long DC wires to the PC, may cause marginal voltages at the PC end. This marginal thing is the hardest thing to diagnose. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it does not. Maybe the PSU itself is marginal too.

Re long DC wires:
A 12″ long DC wire for 12V is considered the limit. The use of multiple 12V wires to the CPU on the motherboard is because even 12″ is not tolerable for high transient cpu load, causing drops in voltages.

Try change the PSU.

On hard drive auto-detect during POST:
I agree hard drive detect during boot up maybe a problem.
I had that before. It was also an intermittent boot problem as well. Seems it has to do with certain drives not powering up fast enough. Or there is problem on the SATA or IDE cable (noisy, signal problems). This causes auto detect problem during boot up.
I solved my problem by turning off auto-detect, hard set the hard drive type in the BIOS. No more boot problem since.

My 2 cents.

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I have a vague memory of motherboard architecture (ahhh, the old days of enforced BIOS fiddling, usually to get HD’s and ISA slots working properly!), and I think it could possibly be the interaction between the CMOS and BIOS.

These are two connected, but separate, entities – the CMOS holds the BIOS info, and the BIOS reads the info from CMOS when the MB boots.

This is why the battery is called the CMOS battery, not the BIOS battery.

When you remove the battery, or short it’s connections, this clears (or ‘Defaults’) the CMOS info. When you then reboot, the BIOS is reading the ‘Default’ CMOS settings.

It sounds like when you exit the BIOS it is ‘rewriting’ the CMOS (even though it is set at ‘Default’), so the reboot works. ie, the CMOS battery has JUST ENOUGH juice to save and reboot, but not just reboot alone.

Which points to the CMOS not holding the info, because the battery is low, and the BIOS won’t boot properly if there’s no CMOS info, or it is corrupted.
Although you can see a Windows logo, the BIOS and OS are still communicating, and have probably got stuck on some corrupted BIOS info.

Change the CMOS battery, it’s not going to cost much, and is an easy fix.

Will

Hi Will,

I somehow missed your message so my last one doesn’t refer to your interesting take. Unfortunately it doesn’t hold either because recently (through no fault of my own :rolleyes: ) the system is booting perfectly nicely, not just once, but 5 or more times since my last BIOS reboot. Your message made more sense to me than anything I’ve read or thought, but….
Now I don’t know. Thanks anyway. Anymore thoughts please…

Chris

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To
scaisson & Chris,

I stated earlier that I had the exact same problem and solved it by replacing the PSU when I noticed in the bios that there was a drop in the 3.3 voltage reading to 2.6. One thing I did not mention is that there also was a drop in the 12 volt reading to 11.7 which I did not consider because it is a much smaller percentage drop than what was showing in the 3.3 volt output.

After reading scaisson’s reply it dawned on me that his description of what causes voltage drops sure sounded like it too was part of the problem, not just a malfunctioning PSU.

I replaced my PSU with a new but identical model as the one that was originally in my system that I purchased at the same time. At first I noticed that all volt readings were good in the new PSU but now after almost a month since I made the change I noticed that both the 3.3 & 12 volt readings are starting to show a very slight drop (no startup problems yet). There must be some degradation of function in the PSU going on and if and when I start having startup problems again I will do the following.

My system is a tinkerers dream: 11 fans, 8 HDD’s, numerous CCFL & LED lights inside and outside the box, 2 USB HDD docks for backup purposes, 5 temperature sensors monitoring 24/7 and my CPU is over-clocked to a constant and stable 4.5 GHz. My plan, if necessary, is to install a second PSU inside the case and separate the motherboard & primary HDD onto one and everything else on the 2nd PSU.

I too, like Chris, was very curious about the cause of this problem but didn’t dwell on it as I thought it was fixed. Chris; I would like to suggest that you replace whatever you are using as the “outside the case” power supply with possibly an in-expensive ATX PSU and connect it to start simultaneously as the case PSU. If you have no experience in ever having done this I can direct you to where you can purchase the $2.00 adapter to accomplish this. SCIASSON; thank you for a very simple explanation which I believe is the answer Chris has been waiting for. As they used to say in the very old days, “73s”.

Murray

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Hi guys,

Thanks for your thoughts. I will try some version of them re the PSU if and when I need to. Since I started posting about this, the pc has been booting perfectly, no other problems either.

It seems to me what you’re saying is that the power supply needs to stabilize in order to boot the system properly (time should do that right?) So all I’ve been doing by accessing the BIOS is supplying time? So if that’s the case, if I pause the start up process for a bit before it gets to Windows, the system should boot, right? I thought I might try that to test your theory (when/if the problem reoccurs).

Murray, My power supply is a 19 volt 6.3 amp supply similar to a laptop’s, only beefier (higher amperage rating). As I mentioned earlier, my voltages, once the pc is going, are all rock steady and right on target.
You said:
>>>I would like to suggest that you replace whatever you are using as the “outside the case” power supply with possibly an in-expensive ATX PSU and connect it to start simultaneously as the case PSU. If you have no experience in ever having done this I can direct you to where you can purchase the $2.00 adapter to accomplish this<<<

I'm not sure what you mean by this, "start simultaneously as the case PSU," What case PSU? So no, I have not had experience with this as I don't even know what you mean. If you feel so inclined please explain a little more.

Thanks again.
Chris

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Hi guys,

Thanks for your thoughts. I will try some version of them re the PSU if and when I need to. Since I started posting about this, the pc has been booting perfectly, no other problems either.

It seems to me what you’re saying is that the power supply needs to stabilize in order to boot the system properly (time should do that right?) So all I’ve been doing by accessing the BIOS is supplying time? So if that’s the case, if I pause the start up process for a bit before it gets to Windows, the system should boot, right? I thought I might try that to test your theory (when/if the problem reoccurs).

Murray, My power supply is a 19 volt 6.3 amp supply similar to a laptop’s, only beefier (higher amperage rating). As I mentioned earlier, my voltages, once the pc is going, are all rock steady . . . . . .

It has suddenly become obvious to me that I have overstepped my limit as I have no concept what & how a HTPC works. I have never thought about it much but have just assumed that a HTPC was a combination of a PC and HOME ENTERTAINMENT SYSTEM working together by having a common connection. I now truly feel your frustration with some of the responses you’ve gotten on this thread.

Obviously you have found a way to circumvent the boot problem and prefer to “live with it” rather than fix it. There’s nothing wrong with that but if it were me I wouldn’t be satisfied until I found a solution. I must say that your solution sure is easier.

As far as having 2 PSU’s startup at the same time (without using an external power strip), it’s a procedure I used very successfully on a build for one of my daughters. She refused to put out the money for an expensive high amperage PSU so I installed 2 very old PSU’s in the case that were wired to start from a single on/off switch. That involves splicing only two wires from each PSU together, or using an adapter which is now available at several PC Parts stores online.

Anyway, I don’t want to beat a dead horse as it seems you have found a solution already. I just want to say that I have found this thread to be extremely educational and have thoroughly enjoyed reading many of the comments here.

Murray

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Hi guys,

It has suddenly become obvious to me that I have overstepped my limit as I have no concept what & how a HTPC works. I have never thought about it much but have just assumed that a HTPC was a combination of a PC and HOME ENTERTAINMENT SYSTEM working together by having a common connection. I now truly feel your frustration with some of the responses you’ve gotten on this thread.

Murray

Hi Murray,

Just so you know; An htpc is really no big deal, not much different from a normal pc. It’s main difference is form factor, and various, depending on price, quality (or not) audio and video outputs aimed at using quality tvs and audio systems. But many of them only pay attention to form factor, in other words they try to be small and svelte, so they can fit into an audio/video system without looking like a geeky computer. They are also relatively quiet.

I didn’t get this htpc to be an htpc, I got because it is inexpensive, small, quiet and powerful enough for what I need.

By the way, I haven’t yet come across an htpc that is worth its salt. The better ones are way too expensive for not much. What I’d really like to find is a simple home audiophile digital music player without dac or soundcard, just digital outs and a video out for on screen viewing and superb music playing software. Kind of like an Ipod for the home with higher quality digital output.

Chris

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