• Odd dependency on Monthly Rollups reported

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    #20808

    Very interesting email from LT. Can anyone confirm? I am Group C but I am still on “Check but let me choose….” just to see how things work going for
    [See the full post at: Odd dependency on Monthly Rollups reported]

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    • #20809

      This issue may be due to Microsoft having pulled the November, 2016 Security Monthly Quality Rollups yesterday, before re-releasing it last night. I, too, have Windows Update set to “Check for updates but let me choose…”. My computer ran Windows Updates on November 23rd at 5:45 am central standard time (USA) and I was offered the October, 2016 Security Monthly Quality Rollup for Windows 7, KB3185330, not the November Rollup. Today, November 24th, Windows Updates ran again around 5:45 am and is back to offering the November Rollup, KB3197868.

    • #20810

      I do not install the monthly rollups either but I have left windows update set to notify/do not install because I want to get Net & MSRT via the service.

      I get the monthly security-only update from the catalog and I also get the monthly non-security/security rollup from windows update. Once I have installed the security-only update from the MS catalog, I hide the monthly rollup version. I did this for the October rollup and I got the November one sent to me.

      Considering you can miss several monthly rollups and still be up to date, you may have to hide the ones you do not want for the service to send the latest and greatest.

    • #20811

      FWIW, (for Windows 8.1) I hid the October Security Monthly Quality Rollup and have been offered the November one (KB3197874). And, as expected the hidden October one is no longer in the hidden list.

    • #20812

      I meant to add that I am in Group B and have installed the October Security Only update, KB3192391 (I will be installing the November Security Only update this weekend). As noted by others, the Monthly Rollups supersede the Security Only updates.

    • #20813

      Well, in my case into a VM with windows 7 x64 professional, the November update just don’t show up because take so much time…
      but yeah, when you hide the october, november don’t show but “i think” is because take so much time (WU bug) for show up. well, at least in my little experiment that happen.

    • #20814

      I installed the October Security Monthly Quality Rollup, but will be in Group B from now on. I installed the Nov Security Quality Update KB3197867 (security only).

      KB3197868 (Nov Rollup) sits in the WU queue uninstalled, as it supersedes the security-only update.

      I would think that next month KB3197868 would be replaced (disappear) by the Dec. Security Monthly Quality Rollup which will supersede it. I would not expect to see an accumulation of Monthly Rollups.

      This situation is strange.

      Group C – not installing ANYTHING or not installing just Windows updates (rollups)?
      I suspect you are also missing the stand-alone Sept servicing-stack update KB3177467 that didn’t appear until the other updates cleared.

    • #20815

      Group B here. Only see the November Quality Rollups in Windows Update.

    • #20816

      I just checked mine, i have windows update turned off but when i checked for updates it shows the november monthly rollup, the .net framework october rollup and the november msrt. I installed the october security only update and the october .net framework security only updates late last month. Am i right in thinking there are no .net framework updates this month?

      That doesn’t mean there’s no dependency because it could be offering me the november rollup because i’ve installed the october security only update? I dunno… this new updating scheme can be a hell of a confusing thing. :/

    • #20817

      I did not install the October Rollup and was offered the November Rollup.

    • #20818

      November KB3197868 is offered her as expected

      he probably checked WU at the time when KB3197868 was pulled temporary

    • #20819

      I’m a Group C-er and I do have “November, 2016 Security Monthly Quality Rollup for Windows 7 for x64-based Systems (KB3197868)” offered along with some older stuff I haven’t installed yet.

    • #20820

      @Abbodi,

      You got it…checked during the time it was temporarily pulled and November KB3197868 then showed up this morning.

    • #20821

      I think you diagnosed the issue correctly.

    • #20822

      I think it is all explained by Todd above. Nothing weird, just a matter of timing when this happened for a short period.

    • #20823

      Exactly! 🙂

    • #20824

      +1

    • #20825

      .NET Framework Monthly Patches.
      .NET Security and Quality Rollup or .NET Security Only Update?
      Which is likely to be safer?
      Less buggy?

      Hello Woody!

      With you on:
      “Users should avoid Microsoft’s newly released preview Windows patches.”.

      But when the latest .NET Framework patches are ready for primetime in December which should I choose?

      Microsoft offer two choices in:
      .NET Framework Monthly Rollups Explained
      https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/dotnet/2016/10/11/net-framework-monthly-rollups-explained/

      .NET Security and Quality Rollup.
      .NET Security Only Update.

      In October I followed your advice:
      “Group B, Step 7. Under “important” updates, you’ll likely find “Security and Quality Rollup for .Net Framework” — which you probably want.”.

      Same again in December?

      The .NET Security and Qualify Rollup was relatively easy to get through Windows Update.
      But if the .NET Security Only Update is safer and less buggy then I will download it manually.

      Am I stuck with .NET Security and Quality Rollup forever now I’ve downloaded it once?

      Can I still choose between this and the .NET Security Only Update in the future?

      Your usual excellent advice much appreciated.

      As for your appointment as the new ceo of microsoft?
      There is still hope!
      After all, anything can happen in office across the pond!

      Cheers!
      sainty?✌️??

    • #20826

      Not sure. My understanding is the .NET Security-only patches are going away, but I may well be mistaken.

    • #20827

      I sure would like some clarity on this, when you have it, Woody.

    • #20828

      .NET updates are generally safe and reliable

      so. it’s very OK to install them all, including Preview one
      but just to be sure, installing the .NET Monthly Security update is the best course
      you don’t need the .NET Security Only Update

    • #20829

      My mistake. It looks like Microsoft will continue producing two patches for .NET every month: Security-only updates, and Monthly Rollup updates.

      They’re patterned on the Group A/Group B breakout for Windows.

    • #20830

      Is .NET Monthly Security update available in Windows Update, or only from the Catalog?

    • #20831

      @Woody: I copied this message from Sainty from the other thread (Blink and you’ll miss, etc.”

      I’m sure you will catch it as it is referred to you for “moderation”.

      I will remain on this thread since it’s the NET Framework updates I’m trying to learn about (which one is “SAFE”, etc.).

      Apologies for the duplicate msg., I was unaware that it was posted in two threads.

      Thank you for all of the information you and the others have supplied to us. 🙂

    • #20832

      @abbodi86: Thank you for the recommendation about the NET update “safety”. Your expertise and help are most sincerely appreciated. 🙂 🙂

    • #20833

      But the issue is that it’s hard for the individual non-techie computer owner to know exactly WHICH .NET patch to take from the Update Catalog, is that right?
      That is why you tell people, even Group B people, to stick with Windows Update for their .NET patches.

      Would the solution be for individual, non-techie computer owners to run Windows Update, to see which .NET patch (security and non-security combined) that Windows Update recommends for their computers, and then to go to the Update Catalog and download the security-only version of that *particular* .NET patch?

      Do the
      .NET security and non-security combined (available on Windows Update)
      and the
      .NET security-only (available only through Update Catalog)
      share the same naming conventions,
      such that it would be easy for the individual, non-techie computer owner to determine which update to download from the Update Catalog, after getting the “hint” from seeing what .NET patch Windows Update is suggesting?

    • #20834

      It’s easiest to just install from Windows Update. You can choose either one – I don’t know of any telemetry in the non-security part of the .NET updates.

    • #20835

      Windows Update.

    • #20836

      Thanks. That is what I thought. Just wanted to confirm before I send instructions out to my clients.

    • #20837

      @CanadienTech,

      You know, I’m not so certain about the availability of the .NET Security Only Update being available via Windows Update.

      I installed the October .NET Security Only Update (KB3188730)from the catalogue (of that I am certain) and I don’t recall it being offered on WU.

      That said, the .NET Security and Quality Rollup KB3188740 was, at that time, and still is offered in my WU queue.

      One last item, I had mentioned to Woody in another thread a while back that once I had installed the .NET Security Only Update (KB3188730) the Windows Update History page listed the update as a “Security Update for Windows” with NO mention of it being a .NET security update.

      At the time, Woody indicated that it did not seem to be an issue. I found it odd, however, that a specific .NET security only update would be listed as a “Security Update for Windows”.

      Who knows what microsoft is doing these days…I certainly don’t. If someone else does, please let me know.

    • #20838

      Regarding KB3177467, you are correct that “the stand-alone Sept servicing-stack update KB3177467 didn’t appear until the other updates cleared.”

      In doing some research on KB3177467, Microsoft states “This update replaces the previously released update 3020369.” (https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3177467)

      I am going to download and install it as a standalone package, as there are some known issues and Microsoft states “…you can avoid either of these issues by deploying this update as a stand-alone update.”

      This all flows from my completing the “KB3020369 – KB3172605 fix for W7 slow downloads” (via the standalone packages route) we here are all now doing. Praise god, it really works!

    • #20839

      Microsoft’s documentation, clearly, sucks. That’s a technical term.

    • #20840

      @abbodi86:

      Just verifying the .NET update once again, as I only have the ONE, which is the “Reliabiity Rollup for NET.”. It’s KB3179930 (60.9 MB). It’s in the “Optionals”, unchecked and not italicized. I had hidden the “Preview” already.

      I’m Group B, therefore more paranoid than most, not wanting to jeopardize the Group B status.

      Apologies for “over-thinking” this, however I’ve not seen a “.NET Security Only” update.

      Thank you once again for your guidance and invaluable assistance. You are definitely the expert on this. 🙂 🙂

    • #20841

      Group B should wait until December 13 for a new “December, 2016 Security and Quality Rollup for .NET Framework 3.5, 4.5.2, 4.6, 4.6.1 on Windows 7 SP1”

    • #20842

      @abbodi86: In the interim should I just leave the KB3179930 in the Optional Updates?

      I will follow your directions, and I say “thank you” very much for your help. 🙂

    • #20843

      @Walker,

      Regarding your statement: “I’ve not seen a “.NET Security Only” update.”

      As far as I understand it,
      the “.NET Security Only” update is only available in the Update Catalog (for manual downloading).

      It will not show up in the Windows Update scan.

      To manually get the .NET Security Only update for your computer from the Update Catalog, you would need to know which .NET update your computer needs (because there are a number of them available). Woody says that this is complicated, and that non-techies do not need to get their .NET updates manually from the Update Catalog.

      That is why Woody says in his Group B instructions that for .NET updating, it’s best for Group B to use the normal Windows Update scan and let it tell you which .NET your computer needs.

      Because of that,
      because Group B is using Windows Update to obtain the .NET updates,
      they will not be installing the “Security Only” one,
      but rather the “Security” one (which is Microsoft’s sneaky name for security and NON-SECURITY patches that are supplied together).

      Even though Group B generally is trying to avoid non-security patches, in the case of .NET, the experts here seem to think it is fine for Group B to get .NET non-security patches in the combined .NET update from the Windows Update scan.

    • #20844

      @Canadian Tech,

      As far as I understand it —

      the “Monthly Security” .NET is served up in Windows Update and includes both security and non-security patches for .NET

      the “Security Only” .NET is only found in the Update Catalog for manual downloading, it is not in Windows Update

      this is a part of Woody’s Group B process which actually accepts non-security patching (along with security patching), because it is complicated to try to figure out which Update Catalog .NET “Security Only” to manually download for one’s computer, and the .NET non-security patches are not deemed by Woody to be a worry for our systems.

    • #20845

      I know it’s easiest to install from Windows Update, I’m just seeing how far a Group B person could get without using Windows Update at all.

      For a “thought experiment”, if nothing else.

      [Since I am still idling over in Group C’s temporary parking.
      🙂 ]

    • #20846

      Ah, a gedankenexperiment… I would guess that it’s difficult to tell which pieces of .NET are on a specific system, thus which patches would need to be manually applied.

    • #20847

      +1

      If there’s an easy way, I’d sure like to hear about it.

    • #20848

      I am going with using WU in Windows for .net and office. No other updates at all. I sent communication to my clients yesterday. A few have replied. So far one has chosen A.

    • #20849

      Yes, leave it or hide it like the “Preview”

    • #20850

      @poohsticks: So good to read your comments! I’ve been away most of the day so I’m “late”.

      You certainly have a lot of information about the situation with the “Security Only” .NET update. I understand that MS has it deliberately structured in this manner and “why”.

      I sincerely appreciate your vast knowledge of this situation, and sharing it with me. I read all of your posts and can only absorb those which a “true non-techie” can understand. I admire your knowledge and experience greatly!

      Thank you for this reference. It is excellent!!!
      🙂 🙂 🙂

    • #20851

      Have they been confused/annoyed with Microsoft’s changes?

      Are they concerned about the risks of being unpatched (except for Office and .NET)?

      Of those you have heard from, have all but the one A person chosen C?

      Did you mention to them that B is a path some people have decided to forge, although it is not an option that you would recommend or provide them ongoing support for?

      —-
      Did you advise the C people that they switch to Firefox, or have you left their non-IE browser choice up to them?

      If you yourself have switched to Firefox from IE, how is that going?

      Have you found any good resources out there that explain to people who are new to Firefox how to make Firefox as private and safe as possible?

      (By the way, I don’t know if it’s a popular add-on for Firefox, but don’t use the Web of Trust add-on — I posted elsewhere on AskWoody.com a few days ago how it’s been in the news in Germany that Web of Trust has sold millions of people’s browsing data, including some very private info that could be traced to named individuals.)

    • #20852

      I have not used any browser but IE. I have not decided on Firefox or Chrome. I know that many techies prefer Firefox. I suspect most of my clients will choose Chrome. Many already use it as an alternative or their main browser.

      I will include in this posting the actual email I sent to my clients. Hopefully that will answer your questions. So far, about 15% of them have responded and all have chosen C.

      The email….

      I have every reason to believe that Windows 7 will be a good system for years to come and I will be doing my level best to support you and your Windows 7 systems. Keep in mind that 50% of the 1.5 Billion PCs in the world use Windows 7. That is not going to change radically for a long time to come.

      Many Windows Updates are defective. Starting in October, Microsoft is creating updates differently in order to prevent people from doing what we have been doing, UN-selecting what they do not want.

      Underlying this is a clear Microsoft intent to turn Windows 7 computers into essentially Windows 10-like advertising platforms. Microsoft’s new Windows Update program for Windows 7 and 8 is part and parcel of that intent.

      I am very disappointed in Microsoft. So are a lot of people who understand what is happening. I have even come to the point that I would recommend Apple instead of Microsoft Windows. Unfortunately, I am not able to support Apple computers. The same is true of Windows 10.

      I encourage you to find an opportunity to take a look at Windows 10 on a friend’s computer. Don’t just look, try and use it a bit. From this time on, if you buy a Windows PC, it will have Windows 10 installed.

      Windows 10 is a completely new and very different Windows. Nothing like anything you have used before.

      · It is primarily an advertising/sales vehicle.

      · By accepting Windows 10, you sacrifice all privacy — essentially, every file and folder on your computer, every email, and every Google search you do is Microsoft’s and its partner’s to use as they see fit.

      · Windows Update is non-optional. You, as owner of your system no longer have control over what happens to your computer. Microsoft will re-make Windows (on your computer) into what serves its purposes without asking your permission or opinion. Microsoft sees Windows as a service, not a product. That strongly suggests there will be an annual fee in the future.

      · Windows 10 as a system is still full of un-fulfilled promises and bugs. Many of your programs and some attached equipment will not run on Windows 10. Windows Live Mail is one of the programs that do not work in Windows 10.

      You will recall in my last email to you, I described the choices we have available now. I am recommending you choose C. I have discovered B is impractical. I am willing to support you, if you decide to choose A.

      A: Let Microsoft install what they wish. These updates include security patches as well as what ever Microsoft decides it wants on your computer. This is essentially what you would have with a Windows 10 system.

      B: This is impractical. It would have been to accept only Security updates.

      C: Accept no more updates to Windows. People who make this choice feel that the risk of Microsoft changing their machine in unacceptable ways is greater than the risk of a hacker breaking in to your computer because some security patch was not installed. I suspect that most people who even think about this and understand it, will opt for this.

      10% of the PCs that use the Internet are running Windows XP, which has not received an update in 2 1/2 years. 10% is 150,000,000 computers. I have not heard about any tragedy happening to those people, if there were, so many of them would not be still running their computers on Windows XP. That is a strong indication of what a person who chose C can expect.

      The strategy I would like you to consider is C, but still updating .net frameworks and Microsoft Office through Windows Update, installing no Windows updates at all – not security or non-security. It would be advisable that you consider using browsers other than Internet Explorer because you would not be getting security updates for Internet Explorer any longer, but instead use an alternative browser – Firefox or Chrome. Just like most of you, switching to one of these will be difficult for me, but I will be here to help you. I don’t think this is urgent, but we should do this.

      If things take a turn for the worse, and you decide you made the wrong choice (C with .net and Office updates), you can easily shift to A by simply using all of the latest Windows Updates.

      Personally, I have chosen C, and for those of you who do not want Windows 10, at least on your current computer, I recommend C. However, I want to be very clear that if you decide A is the route you wish to follow, I will support you. The process that follows is for C, but I will provide one for A. if you choose that path.

      I will outline the process for C in detail now:

      1. Start Windows update, after I send you an email, about once a month. You will leave the Windows Update setting at Never as it has been for a long time now. You do not need to recheck this every month.

      2. Click Check for Updates

      3. UNCHECK all items except for Microsoft Office updates (there may be none or several) and the update that you see that is labeled November, 2016 Quality Rollup for .NET Framework….

      4. Be very careful, the names of these updates are intentionally designed to be easy to mix up. You will UNCHECK all items except .NET Framework and Microsoft Office.

      5. Click Install updates

      That’s it. It is not difficult.

      As long as I am able, and I hope that is for a very long time, I will be staying close to the situation. Should anything change that requires a change of strategy in my opinion, I will advise you.

      In case you ask:

      .net framework is a programming system used by many web sites

      Microsoft Office is a combination of Microsoft Word, Excel, PowerPoint and you may have Outlook

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