Practical for home user to have Virtual Machine?

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Hi to all,

Is it practical for a home user to have a VM?

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It all depends on what the home user wants to do.

Joe

--Joe

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It all depends on what the home user wants to do.

Joe

you’re right, the only reason I can of is to use as another machine for trying new apps, thanks for your reply

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If you only have one or two systems and they aren’t tricked out with 4 or more cores and at least 4 gigs of RAM, etc. etc., and are willing to put up with the performance hit if you can’t move to a SSD…not terribly practical.

In my situation of running several systems that can handle a VM all the time and doing everything needed to get performance out of a VM…oh my, some tremendous advantages in the form of VM replication to other systems, every copy is a backup so no imaging required, greater system resource utilization, flexibility to never need dual or triple boot (just use the OS you want when you want). Those are four of the biggies I can think of right off the top.

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If you only have one or two systems and they aren’t tricked out with 4 or more cores and at least 4 gigs of RAM, etc. etc., and are willing to put up with the performance hit if you can’t move to a SSD…not terribly practical.

In my situation of running several systems that can handle a VM all the time and doing everything needed to get performance out of a VM…oh my, some tremendous advantages in the form of VM replication to other systems, every copy is a backup so no imaging required, greater system resource utilization, flexibility to never need dual or triple boot (just use the OS you want when you want). Those are four of the biggies I can think of right off the top.

Thank you, that’s the answer, I have one system and was wondering if it would be a load on the computer even with a dual core, 3g ram.

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Thank you, that’s the answer, I have one system and was wondering if it would be a load on the computer even with a dual core, 3g ram.

It’s doable, with a performance penalty, but definitely doable. I have 4 GB on my laptop, but running W7 32 bit, so only have access to 3 GB RAM and I can run Windows 7 XP Mode, have a Virtual Box with Windows 8 and run VMware player with a work VM (one at a time, of course).

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I have been running the Windows VM on a dual core 2.8GHz Windows XP SP3 desktop with 2GB RAM for some time. I run Window ME (sic) in the VM. I use this VM to update a training manual that requires interaction between Office 2000 and PageMaker. I must use PowerPoint 2000 because PowerPoint 2007 will not link the slides correctly to the PageMaker file. I find running both Office 2000 and Office 2007 together under XP gives rise to problems, so this is the best solution. I suppose I could buy InDesign, but it’s not cheap, and apart from this problem, PageMaker is fine for me, at least for the moment.

Why ME? Because I have a spare license for this OS. I could run XP in the VM, but I’d need another license for that.

Chris

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If you only have one or two systems and they aren’t tricked out with 4 or more cores and at least 4 gigs of RAM, etc. etc., and are willing to put up with the performance hit if you can’t move to a SSD…not terribly practical.

I disagree
I only have 4 GB RAM and HDD but no SSD.

I am perfectly satisfied with 2 GB RAM dedicated to to Guest and only 2 GB RAM available to the Host.

I have never yet needed more than 2 GB for the Guest and see no likelihood.

I might need to reconsider if I was an on-line game player and decided to use my Guest for myself to compete with myself on the Host :rolleyes:

I normally have the full availability of 4 GB RAM for the Host because I rarely need to launch the VBOX system,
and when I am using the Guest I only switch into the Host to copy across to the folder what I wish to share with the Guest.
(If I want to try something that might harm my real system, or that might accidentally allow malware intrusion and damage,
I do it with the Guest and carefully regulate what it can read from the Host, and block any attempt to write back to the Host system.)

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I do have a VM installed on one dualie and when I get a video render task started there, it is registering 100% CPU usage on the host computer. I can still do other menial tasks on the host but I wouldn’t think I could play back a hi def movie without interruption. Sometimes its surprising though what multiple cores are capable of even though they are fully saturated but if I had 4 I know I’d have some breathing room. My 6 cores can run 2 VMs and the host without fully saturating…close though!!

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Nice little hack to get XP now that Microsoft is no longer selling it; if you don’t have Windows 7 Pro or above, get a friend who does to install XP mode, import XP mode into VMWare Player and make as many copies of that VM as you want.

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Nice little hack to get XP now that Microsoft is no longer selling it; if you don’t have Windows 7 Pro or above, get a friend who does to install XP mode, import XP mode into VMWare Player and make as many copies of that VM as you want.

I doubt this wouldn’t be a violation of the XP license that came with 7 Pro.

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Probably not, let me buy a licensed consumer copy from Microsoft and find ou….oops.

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That’s a good, traditional use of a VM, but, what if you had to use the VM all the time and not just on rare occasions? Would it pass muster as well as the host does? That’s what I meant, and didn’t express it very well. I’ve been where you’re coming from and while you describe a practical use, I’ve moved on to practical use in general, no holds barred except where a VM still isn’t and may never be competent, like gaming. My VMs are running much of the time and I sign into and use them remotely just as if they were another computer.

So I need better descriptives I guess. Virtual computer as opposed to virtual machine maybe?

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I think the best way to answer the VM questions is to tell my experience.
I am the “IT” for friends and relatives. Remote access and TeamViewer may help but constant phone calls are still a hassle. Just ask my wife!
I finally settle on VM. Has already installed 6 VM PCs. And 3 more on the way. So far, so good.
One note: In VM I mean it to be ‘Classical VM’, such as using VMWare, Virtualbox, or Qemu, not Microsoft Virtual-XP. There is key difference. Later on this.

All the ‘older’ VM PCs are XP 32-bit based. Hence, the max memory for the parent OS is about 3G (32-bit fundamental limit). On new ones, it is all Windows 7 64-bit (Home, Ultimate, version does not matter), all have 8G to 16G memory. Memory is cheap today, about US$50 for 8G-16G DDR3 types, perfect for VM, and Windows 7.

XP as parent OS has the memory size limitation. As such, it could be slow if you run heavy duty software, or more than 2 guest Oses. In fact, some software will not install in guest OS simply because NOT enough electronic memory (SDram). Adobe Photoshop is one example. It needs more than 2G memory. XP can only have about 3G memory. The parent XP needs 60% of 3G for itself in the memory allocation. This limits XP-32-bit as a parent OS.

That is, need to use 64-bit OS as parent OS.

The basic system is Win7 64-bit, 8G-16G SDram, having as little installed software as possible in the parent (or mother) OS. Most software in it are portable apps, no installation needed. (Yes, there is even portable Firefox and Thunderbird.) This keeps mother OS clean and light. The guest OSes ‘hard drives’ are all in another physical hard drive. The mother OS physical drive is therefore clean and light. Meaning? Runs fast and boots up fast.

Guess OSes are XP, Win98, and Linux. Yes, I myself need DOS and Win98. I have (originally) expensive software that can only run in Win98.

Surprisingly, VM is not hard to use for my ‘common users’, which are amateurs: defined as able to surf the web, use programs, emailing, play video, know simple navigation and use Folder Explorer. And not much else. Yes, most of them can customize (personalize) desktop to some extent, such as background wall paper, etc. In fact, this is the number one thing they’d like to do first.

One constant learning and relearning is accessing USB devices in Virtualbox. Seems locked access by Vbox causes some heartburn. Usually user forgets to unlock USB access in the Virtual OS. Mother OS then cannot access the specific USB device unless it is released by the Virtual OS. A disappeared USB device is a scary thought.

The other difficulty is urging users to use Linux for web surfing (to avoid drive-by virus). The ‘look and feel’ is sufficiently different that users are uncomfortable. (It is user feedback! Please don’t rage about how great Linux is … because I agree with you but we are not ‘common user’.)

Backup is easy, I pre-create several snapshots on each and every guest OSes. In case of trouble, simply delete the current snapshot and they are good to go again. Seldom do I need remote access or TeamViewer. In fact, I no longer install VNC for remote access.

The key to ‘Classical VM’ is old hardware compatibility.
For a Win7 parent OS, your scanner, or printer, maybe obsolete: no driver available. Run Clasical VM with XP as guest OS, then the XP printer driver works! Note that this is NOT true if you run Microsoft Virtual-XP under Win7. In this case, MS V-XP accesses the old printer via Win7 driver. If the Win7 printer driver is not compatible, MS V-XP is powerless. The is the key why you need to run ‘Classical VM’.

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So boiled down, the friends and relatives under you administrations are running on the guest OS with the host basically just being the shell platform?

So far I haven’t had any problems installing anything on a 32-bit hosted guest OS, including Photoshop CS5 and a couple other editing programs as well as several large HD video editing programs (Studio HD ultimate, Nero Suite (Nero Video-though it stubbornly refused to give me a scrub window; works in preview though so I think they programmed in a key higher video element that the VM is not providing), VideoStudio, etc.).

The more RAM the better yes, and it sounds like you don’t have very demanding users but if you did, getting the VMs to SSDs has a higher return rate for performance than just popping up the RAM by 25, 50 or 100%. More expensive though.
SSDs easily return more performance on 32-bit hosted systems than 64-bit hosted ones with more RAM but no SSD. Of course the best of both worlds is more RAM and SSD.

And did you ever consider LINUX as the host for your common users? I tried it and it works quite well with Ubuntu and VMWarePlayer. Or do you think there would be problems? Save mucho buckeroos if they could. I only stopped using it because I couldn’t stand entering my password every 3 minutes to do something but while on the VMs remotely everything was peachy keen.

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I’m sure you guys all have more serious computing needs than I do, but here’s my 2 bits/user experience. I tend not to update every time something new comes along. That goes for HW & SW, alike. Without recounting the full litany of frustrations that impelled me, I can say that the fact that new versions of Windows spurn older hardware (like my daughter’s 3-year-old laptop) drove me to try — and to adopt — linux. They say that learning a new OS helps stave off dementia. So, okay, that part didn’t work, but Ubuntu 11.04 did install and run on both my daughter’s 32-bit HP dual-core Centrino 2 GB and my 64-bit AMD quad core Phenom 8 GB equally well, equally effortlessly, and all devices worked without any fixes or tweaks. V-Box went on both systems effortlessly, and they both run Win2K and XP VM’s simultaneously hosted on Linux. Frankly, after living with Ubuntu for awhile, I only fire up the Win systems to download SCUBA diving data off my dive computer (which only runs on Windows: no joy with Wine) and to use oldies but goodies like Image Composer. I’m sure there’s some freebie photo/graphics program that does all the same stuff even better; I just haven’t bothered to “shop” for it. Your experince could turn out to be hellish, but mine was a total piece of cake and the demand on resources has been modest enough not to have become a noticeable issue at all. Besides, those VM’s running on the desktop — they’re so CUTE!. As a last plug for Linux: When my daughter’s laptop achieved door-stop status, I was able to run Ubuntu “live” off the CD (yes, the whole shebang, including the office suite, fits on one CD), collect up all her school work and music and, and… and burn it to multiple DVD’s — all without ever actually installing Linux. That was the most painless back-from-the-brink experience I have had in years. Oh, yeah: and no cost or licensing issues.

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I was able to run Ubuntu “live” off the CD (yes, the whole shebang, including the office suite, fits on one CD), collect up all her school work and music and, and… and burn it to multiple DVD’s — all without ever actually installing Linux. That was the most painless back-from-the-brink experience I have had in years.

Yes, from a utility-wise standard, no doubt; covers all the bases on various formats and potential controller access issues. Parted Magic ISO is my number one tool for that.

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Just getting the LINUX version of VMWarePlayer installed and running cost about 45 minutes extra and a lot of googling to come up with the two command lines needed to make it work

I got to about that same place with VMWare (Server) & saw more & more issues cropping up. One of which was something called ‘Planned End of Life.’ “Hmm,” thought I, “Why not check out VBox?” By the time I realized what was happening, I was having trouble getting into my jeans. Now we is married.

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See my previous post here re VM. I’m much interested in VM for common users than for experienced users.

In reply to why not run Linux as parent OS:
No ‘customer’ of mine prefers Linux. (Repeat here to be clear: my ‘customers’ are my relatives and friends. I am free IT support to them.)
They all want Windows based. They all want baby blanket secured feeling. Hence parent OS has to be Windows. If something broke, they know they can handle it in the parent Windows OS. And in a pinch they have a PC to use. With Linux, they have anxiety. Placebo effect or not, it is the customer. You serve them. You’re not their boss. They are yours.

In answering to why keep parent Win7 clean and only install stuffs in guest OSes, and use guest OSes almost exclusively:
This is the ‘trick’.
When all goes bad, they still have the clean parent OS Win7 to fall back to.

‘Customers’ all want freedom to misbehave. Sometimes. They can misbehave (meaning? FREEDOM on THEIR OWN PC). You rescue them in time of need. But your aim is zero technical call. If they do cause problems, they simply delete the current snapshot (in Virtualbox, for example) and they are good to go on the previous snapshot, and as clean as it can be. Here, VM rules. An infected guest OS does not affect other guests and the parent OS.

(One may argue that you can infect through the VM barrier. That statement is always true; it’s a matter of time. But really, the statement has no virtual. Surely it’ll be in the future, but not at present.)

I also create another guest OS as ‘safe’ OS, for banking etc. Now they don’t worry about possible cross infections. In effect, they have several ‘PCs’ to play around.

Of course, I never miss the opportunity and install a guest Linux. Do customs use Linux? The polite answer from customers is “Not yet.”

As for Photoshop. I neglect in previous post that I used Photoshop Pro, not the CS version. I could not install Photoshop Pro in guest OS when the guest OS did not have more than 2G of memory. In fact, Photoshop Pro warned me about ram requirement before install.

Change subject. Not related to VM.
Photoshop really benefits from fast hard drive (say, 10,000rpm types) or SSD (Solid States Drive). At least the pagefile should be in the fast hard drive. During use, there are much pagefaults (paging activities to hard drive). Not an appropriate subject here. Please search info about this.

As for my ‘customer’ not doing ‘much’ on their PC.
I think we should rethink about our ‘customers’. For most people, let’s count the usage as ‘use per day’. It is web surfing (including social networking), email, pay bills, chat, and photos. The next is video.
Seldom write in MS Office. Power Point? Business matters? We do it on our company laptop. Company laptop is not to play with anyway. The most exciting thing I find is photo handling for my ‘customers’. The ability to hook to a HDTV, and wow! slideshows. I remember the excitement about burning photos to CDs and DVDs. It is no longer a hot item. Customers either upload photo to web sites or send by email.

I hope my posts help people move to VM. At least not afraid of it.
A spare cpu core is a terrible byte to waste!

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Esteemed scaisson:

Dude, I think you may have simply transcended: a fresh VM in lieu of wasted evening! I must say, though, thou art truly a more virtuous man than I. Either than or your family members actually listen to you! Remember this one? “Wow, look at the drawer full of parts! All I need is a ______, and I could build another system and give it to Aunt Hilda.” (We must harbor some deep-seated notion that those parts amount to a soul on ice, a soul to whom we owe a tech resurrection.) $575 later, voilà! a new old system! Now things are cheap, no more rebuilds: just give the whole system away the very minute we can talk ourselves into it.

Now here’s where my admiration for your virtue comes in. For my part, I’d hand the new owner a transparent plastic file envelope containing all the manuals, software and drivers, case keys, drawer bay covers, maybe a jumper or 2, plus a few notes, if warranted. I would also create a spare admin account and write the U/N & PW on the inside of the case. I would advise them to keep the envelope safe and take it with them if they ever needed to take the system to a tech (mostly for the antique drivers).

Three things tended to happen: 1) This one is definitely a deep genetic imperative: they’d immediately open the envelope and scatter all the books and disks to the 4 winds; 2) I’d get a call in 10 days: “My friend? (at band camp?) had a copy of Windows3000? and when he tried to install it the system froze up (gosh, could it have been the Cuneiform drivers?) ; or 3) They’d sheepishly admit that they’d gone out and bought a new system 4 days after I gave them my old one. Hey, I can’t fault anyone for becoming inspired.

But now the new owners get Ubuntu, because it’s effortless to install or re-install on pretty much any hardware. I know, I know: what a Grinch. A few folks have actually become regular Linux users! For the rest, Ubuntu’s an ideal stepping stone to going out and buying something else or rendering the box inert with Win 3K.

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No cost up front is definitely nice and each time I try Ubuntu it seems better and better; spot on for things already loaded and ready to go. Unfortunately to get more sophisticated it cost me a lot on the backside in the form of TIME. Just getting the LINUX version of VMWarePlayer installed and running cost about 45 minutes extra and a lot of googling to come up with the two command lines needed to make it work and then it was like OK, done finally, now back slowly away and don’t touch anything else; its working!

If the average user could easily install and run familiar high end Windows-type programs Microsoft would be in trouble because there really isn’t anything wrong with the platform itself. I’ve been trying for 7 or 8 years now to make it work…and it keeps getting closer but seems to still have a long way to go to get mainstream.

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Really depends on the user. I have Mac OS as a VM installed. I think you should give it a try.

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