Recommend web-design programs?

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I did my due diligence and looked through the previous posts, but I’d like to ask a slightly more focused question. I have far too many years in the development world (I’m one of those who started out with Hollerith cards and paper tapes) but escaped a half-dozen years ago. In other words, I have some coding experience — but all in languages that are either obsolete (Assembler, COBOL, FORTRAN) or out of the mainstream (multi-value data base BASIC varieties). For what it’s worth, I’m comfortable with command line operations in both Windows and UNIX (so, presumably, LINUX).

I need to put together a web site for my business (a personal one, as well, but that’s less imperative — the specifications will be roughly the same). The site(s) will be fairly static, aside from a blog page, with absolutely no animation (this is an accounting business, after all). In other words, fairly simple. While I can code in HTML and CSS if I must, I’d rather not spend the time struggling through the process of becoming competent. I’m looking for a good, low- or no-cost WYSIWYG web page editor, BUT — it must allow me to use my own choice of hosts, which rules out at least 90% of the ones I’ve looked at. I can’t afford to pay a developer (the ones with reasonable prices seem to be the ones that insist on holding the sites close and not allowing owner maintenance).

My only other requirements are (1) the program must use modern technology, and (2) there can’t be an artificial limit on the number of pages supported — the personal site will be used for family tree posting and could run to dozens if not hundreds of pages by the time I’m through. I’ve looked at WordPress in the past but haven’t revisited it recently, and the other day I downloaded Serif WebPlus to take a look. The latter uses a lot of frames, which I understand violates my first requirement unless they’re use of the term is different from the anathema in the page design world.

Any recommendations are welcome, as are “stay away from this one” posts. Discussions are even better!

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Why are hosts ruled out? Does the software produce code in ASP?

cheers, Paul

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Paul, I’ve ruled out the sites that insist on hosting simply because I already have a host I believe I can trust. To keep life simple, I like having my domain registration, hosting, and email all through the same host. I did have to make a change because the previous one had too many email problems once too often. Thanks for asking!

Dave

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One way to get started is to ‘borrow’ a page you like the looks of, save it to your hard drive. Then download the Free Microsoft Expression Web 4 from http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=36179 to view or edit the coding. Or using a word processor such as WordPerfect, Word, LibreOffice Writer try creating a page as desired and Save As or Publish as a Web page.

Many hosting services can get a Domain registered and provide a page editor plus FTP procedures/program to upload pages to the Domain.

I also looked at WordPress some time ago and didn’t care for the emphasis on blogging. One of the nicest page editors was Microsoft’s FrontPage, usually part of some versions of Office or as a stand-alone but some hosting services no longer support FrontPage extensions.

If one wanted to do it the earlier way, get the HTML for Dummies book and use Notepad, a very clean text editor that doesn’t insert hidden coding like a word processor does.

Before you wonder "Am I doing things right," ask "Am I doing the right things?"

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If one wanted to do it the earlier way, get the HTML for Dummies book and use Notepad, a very clean text editor that doesn’t insert hidden coding like a word processor does.

I’m all for the do it native approach as you can control EXACTLY how you site looks. With CSS if you set up a couple of good styles the appearance is easy and you can load it on any host.

On the other hand I wouldn’t use notepad. You want NotePadd++ at a minimum or better yet Arachnophobia (both free). The advantage here is the syntax color coding and checking (in the case of Arachnophobia) make the job much easier.

One final note: MAKE SURE your domain is registered in YOUR name. It’s the only way you can protect your brand should you decide to change host services.

HTH :cheers:

May the Forces of good computing be with you!

RG

PowerShell & VBA Rule!
Computer Specs

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“One of the nicest page editors was Microsoft’s FrontPage, usually part of some versions of Office or as a stand-alone but some hosting services no longer support FrontPage extensions.”

I’ve been using FrontPage 2000 since just after it was released, and I still use it. I created and maintained between 50 and 60 sites with it for my businesses and for my customers. I now use it on XP 32bit and Win7 64bit with no problems. It is as good and useful as it ever was.

As to FrontPage extensions: I never – ever – used them because they are proprietary, non-standard, and browser limiting. There are better ways to do just about anything you want to do, including lots of free stuff.

When using FP, do not create “webs” (their terminology). Instead create “pages” (everyone else’s terminology).

Also, do not “publish” the pages and pictures. Just upload them to your host using a free FTP client like Filezilla. Simple and faster, also.

I’ve noticed a lot of nonsense in this thread about the need for databases, php, and other technologies. in my humble(?) opinion, for what you want to do – forget that stuff.

Someone even mentioned how bad it is to use frames. That advice is just silly. Frames were a no no when some browsers couldn’t handle them. That issue went away a very very long ago. Frames are very useful, and FP handles them easily.

If you don’t have a copy of FP2000 or FP2003, you can buy legit disks from trustprice(dot)com – very cheaply.

You can get free javascripts that do all sorts of good stuff (menu’s, etc) at sourceforge(dot)net, snapfile(dot)com, and many other places.

Don’t be intimidated. I’m older than you, and I do it. (I’m so old I don’t even buy green bananas.) With your background you’ll pick it up easily.

Enjoy.

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I’ve noticed a lot of nonsense in this thread about the need for databases, php, and other technologies. in my humble(?) opinion, for what you want to do – forget that stuff.

So, please tell us, once again, how can a blog be created without some option to store post data. I am sure your opinion will be illuminating, considering what was posted before was nonsense.

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Someone even mentioned how bad it is to use frames. That advice is just silly. Frames were a no no when some browsers couldn’t handle them. That issue went away a very very long ago. Frames are very useful, and FP handles them easily..

Considering how down right annoying they are every time I encounter them, I’d say there usefulness is limited to keeping all but the highly motivated away.

Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.

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In terms of your business site then WordPress can be made to look shiny with a decent theme. I’ve been using the free version of Make. As @RetiredGeek notes own your own domain and find some hosting that will allow you to run PHP and hopefully has a one-click WordPress install option.

I think that with the use of RootsPersona you’ll also have some measure of success with getting WordPress to sort out the showing of your family tree for your personal site. If your host allows subdomains (and most do), then you can have two sites running off of the same domains http://something.com for business and then http://family.something.com for your personal stuff. I’ve been using 34sp for years and they offer all that I’ve suggested.

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Thanks, Mouse. I actually have separate domains for the personal and business websites so that’s not an issue. Because I have two lines of business, though, I will be using subdomains to keep them separate (and, in fact, I’ll probably get some additional domains for them just because that’s what clients will be looking for if they type a URL without knowing exactly what they’re looking for).

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Berton, I keep forgetting about the “publish to web page” option in LO. Thanks for the reminder!

Dave

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Geek, I fully agree about maintaining ultimate control. My problem is simply that I don’t have a lot of time to be learning to code HTML (and CSS, of course) from scratch. I’m in one of those circular dilemmas right now — not enough income to pay for someone else to design a site, but no web site to attract more lucrative clients.

I took a brief look at Notepad++ the other day but didn’t have much time. I’ll look at arachnophobia, as well. Thanks!

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Jwoods, thanks for the links. If I get to the point of direct HTML editing I’ll definitely look into the CoffeeCup editor. My previous site was completely hard-coded, and it looked like it!

I am familiar with the W3C site. It was very useful, along with a book that is either still in a box after I moved my office or at home, so I can’t tell you what it is. Not quite HTML for Dummies but definitely along those lines and it includes some of that information, as well.

Dave

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The web is a complex place these days. HTML and CSS have not been enough for a long time, but it can probably be argued that now they are even less enough than they were 7 or 8 years ago. Javascript as become an integral part of a better web experience.

There are those who add another piece of technology to it – a server side platform (although the preference for a full javascript stack has been increasing). If you want to persist info, you will need to store your data in some form of database, and that adds to the learning curve.

Unless you want to go through all this (it can be fun), you can use a Content Management System, of which WordPress is the easiest to begin with, is widely supported and has thousands of add-ons that allow you to get as complex a web site as you wish. The downside, besides performance unless you do with some Premium hosting, is some inflexibility, unless you know both PHP and WordPress architecture, but it should be pretty enough for most common websites.

There are other CMSes that you could use, with a steeper learning curve, though. Joomla and Drupal are probably the most popular. You could even find dozens of other similar systems, but they won’t be as featured as these.

Forget WYSIWYG systems. Those can’t even ensure the HTML will be right, let alone the use of modern technologies. Unless you are prepared to fight against them, use a decent editor (a quick search will allow you to determine favorites of web devs) if you don’t go with a CMS. In your case, I would probably go with WordPress, considering your needs and your knowledge of web development.

HTH

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The site(s) will be fairly static, aside from a blog page, with absolutely no animation (this is an accounting business, after all). In other words, fairly simple.

I can’t see the need for more that HTML, CSS, and maybe a little JavaScript. Reminds me of the old adage about using a Sledge Hammer to kill flies. :cheers:

May the Forces of good computing be with you!

RG

PowerShell & VBA Rule!
Computer Specs

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I can’t see the need for more that HTML, CSS, and maybe a little JavaScript. Reminds me of the old adage about using a Sledge Hammer to kill flies. :cheers:

A blog may require a bit more, especially in terms of data storage – there are blogging platforms that use stuff like XML to store posts, but it doesn’t sound like the best option here. So, if you add up a data store, unless you use a ready made platform, you would have to deal with data store access. That would require some learning on its own :).

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the old adage about using a Sledge Hammer to kill flies

I thought it was “sledge hammer to crack nuts”?

cheers, Paul

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I can’t see the need for more that HTML, CSS, and maybe a little JavaScript. Reminds me of the old adage about using a Sledge Hammer to kill flies. :cheers:

I agree here. You have to ask yourself; Do you want to dazzle them with flash and glitter or simply supply the visitor with the content they come to your site for.
HTML, CSS and a simple WYSIWYG editor can be all you’ll need if you just want to supply your visitors with pertinent content. One good WYSIWYG editor I’ve heard good reviews about is Kompozer.
I personally have never used it as I do all my website work in EditPlus, which is a somewhat advanced HTML editor, but I understand that Kompozer is pretty easy to use, and from the sites I’ve seen that use it, doesn’t make near as big of a mess of the actual markup language as most WYSIWYG editors do, such as anything from Microsoft.

Most hosting companies offer script installers as part of the package. You can generally find a good blog script available in the script installer, but I should add, the script installer itself can sometimes screw up the install of the script.
I think one of the better script installers is Softaculous, if your host offers that particular one.

As for your domain name, as mentioned by RetiredGeek in post #5, it’s best to handle your own domain name registration, rather than leaving it up to your hosting company.
You said you have, what you believe is a trustworthy hosting company, but you most likely won’t know for sure if/until you decide to move to a new hosting company, for whatever reason, only to find out that you can’t keep your domain name because it really isn’t owned by you. It’s owned by the hosting company that registered it for you, but in their name.

A quick word about WordPress: It is a decent starter CMS type of system, but it does come with security issues, which can be overcome – for the most part, but it will take some learning and diligence on your part to secure it.

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I agree here. You have to ask yourself; Do you want to dazzle them with flash and glitter or simply supply the visitor with the content they come to your site for.
HTML, CSS and a simple WYSIWYG editor can be all you’ll need if you just want to supply your visitors with pertinent content. One good WYSIWYG editor I’ve heard good reviews about is Kompozer.
I personally have never used it as I do all my website work in EditPlus, which is a somewhat advanced HTML editor, but I understand that Kompozer is pretty easy to use, and from the sites I’ve seen that use it, doesn’t make near as big of a mess of the actual markup language as most WYSIWYG editors do, such as anything from Microsoft.

Most hosting companies offer script installers as part of the package. You can generally find a good blog script available in the script installer, but I should add, the script installer itself can sometimes screw up the install of the script.
I think one of the better script installers is Softaculous, if your host offers that particular one.

As for your domain name, as mentioned by RetiredGeek in post #5, it’s best to handle your own domain name registration, rather than leaving it up to your hosting company.
You said you have, what you believe is a trustworthy hosting company, but you most likely won’t know for sure if/until you decide to move to a new hosting company, for whatever reason, only to find out that you can’t keep your domain name because it really isn’t owned by you. It’s owned by the hosting company that registered it for you, but in their name.

A quick word about WordPress: It is a decent starter CMS type of system, but it does come with security issues, which can be overcome – for the most part, but it will take some learning and diligence on your part to secure it.

So tell me, how can you create a blogging system with just HTML and CSS?

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So tell me, how can you create a blogging system with just HTML and CSS?

You can’t. That’s why I mentioned a script installer.
I should have added that a script installer can be used to install a blogging platform. My bad.

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A quick word about WordPress: It is a decent starter CMS type of system…

Commodore used to say something like “If you think the C=64 is just a toy, play around with one for a while!” WordPress is the only CMS I actually know at least a little about, but I also know some major sites (eBay, Snoop Dog, Harvard and more) are running it:
http://www.wpbeginner.com/showcase/40-most-notable-big-name-brands-that-are-using-wordpress/

[WordPress] does come with security issues…[/quote]
Not because it is WordPress. Websites and hosting come with security issues, and WordPress does as well there as any other.

…security issues, which can be overcome – for the most part, but it will take some learning and diligence on your part to secure it.

Yes, and just as for any site on any server at any host. For WordPress, the initial challenge is to “harden” it, and the BulletProof Security plugin handles that completely and perfectly. After that, there are other well-seasoned plugins that can do additional things related to firewalling and throttling.

As an aside here: WordPress.com is a host where all webmastering for security and such is handled for you, and wordpress.org is where you go to simply download WordPress for a local installation (site development) and/or for use at your own “self-hosted” site wherever unless you use an installation script to get started.

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All posts since my last one read and taken under advisement. Continuing thanks to all who are helping!

Dave

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In my opinion (which is shared by others) FrontPage is an extremely poor web page editor inasmuch it produces poor code which neither verifies nor meets accessibility rules. Frames are aloe a poor choice, also because of accessibility. But also because of maintenance. They may be OK if you have a couple of pages, but become harder to maintain when you have more. CSS is far more powerful and easier to use.

W3C is a good site for testing pages – accessibility – http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/, verification – https://validator.w3.org/

Eliminate spare time: start programming PowerShell

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In my opinion (which is shared by others) FrontPage is an extremely poor web page editor inasmuch it produces poor code which neither verifies nor meets accessibility rules. Frames are aloe a poor choice, also because of accessibility. But also because of maintenance. They may be OK if you have a couple of pages, but become harder to maintain when you have more. CSS is far more powerful and easier to use.

W3C is a good site for testing pages – accessibility – http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/, verification – https://validator.w3.org/

I refuse to even mention FP on any serious discussion of web development. It’s really that simple. FP was bad back on 2003, let alone on 2015.

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To see what cane be done with CSS look at http://www.csszengarden.com/. It’s the same html code in each case, but the CSS is different and makes for very different sites.

And having just checked, they’ve updated the pages so they they are more modern in design.

Eliminate spare time: start programming PowerShell

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Another great place that shows what can be done with CSS, especially with drop down menus with no JavaScript.

http://www.cssplay.co.uk/

I use his drop down menu styles on a few of the sites I’ve built, with permission of course, after donating to his work.

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Another great place that shows what can be done with CSS, especially with drop down menus with no JavaScript.

http://www.cssplay.co.uk/

I use his drop down menu styles on a few of the sites I’ve built, with permission of course, after donating to his work.

Javascript is not just relevant for menus, but to create interactions that are very hard to create any other way, if not impossible. It allows you do create interfaces that can be as good or even better than native apps, which you have no way to create with CSS. That makes sense too, because Javascript and CSS are meant for completely different things.

Javascript’s importance has been increasing quite noticeably through these last few years, for several reasons, but also to take advantage of increasingly more computational powerful clients, and that can be seen by the number of sites that use it and the number of Javascript frameworks, meant for as diverse things as building Single Page Applications to video games, has exploded. Many web developers use Javascript, which has increased its influence from just the client, to the full stack – client, server and database.

Is Javascript indispensable to create a website? No. However, Javascript can make a web site a lot easier to use, with a much more natural interaction, without the need to have the server submission of web pages of old. Javascript has grown to be one of the most popular programming languages, used even in other fields of application than web apps.

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Javascript is not just relevant for menus, but to create interactions that are very hard to create any other way, if not impossible. It allows you do create interfaces that can be as good or even better than native apps, which you have no way to create with CSS. That makes sense too, because Javascript and CSS are meant for completely different things.

Did you even have a look at the website I linked to, or the link access-mdb posted? It shows that JavaScript isn’t needed for most any type of drop down/slide out menu, as well as building a good looking, functional website.

That said, I wasn’t trying to imply that JavaScript isn’t relevant. Just that it’s not needed for menus. I even use a bit of JavaScript on a couple of my sites, mainly for image display.
It’s quite evident how relevant and popular JavaScript is if you use the NoScript browser add-on. For usefulness and for advertising. However, the JavaScript on most sites isn’t even needed for the display of the content one is looking for on a lot of sites, mainly used for annoying ads and tracking.

Is JavaScript secure? Yes and no. It depends on how it’s used. As I said, you can effectively block most scripts on most sites without any detrimental affect on viewing the site.

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It’s quite evident how relevant and popular JavaScript is if you use the NoScript browser add-on. For usefulness and for advertising. However, the JavaScript on most sites isn’t even needed for the display of the content one is looking for on a lot of sites, mainly used for annoying ads and tracking.

You’re not a web developer, are you? Or used modern apps such as, of all things, gmail or trello? Or read one of those infinite scroll sites, like theatlantic.com? Or even read the fact that there are even proposals for dumping css altogether and use just javascript, which has been prompted by Facebook ReactJS?

Sorry to tell you, the web is running on Javascript and it will run more so every single day that goes by.

P.S.: Just as I wrote this, go on my feed and found an interesting definition of what is a modern web app. It’s not that I didn’t know, but it’s evidence of what developers think and are using everywhere:

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/azurians_life/archive/2015/07/03/part1-introduction-to-n-tier-modern-web-application.aspx

I’ll quote the most interesting parts:

Modern Web Apps
What is the Definition of a Modern web app this is a good question that comes to every developer mind when we think about their application is it a modern web app or no? The Answer is in the next few lines

Characteristics of Modern Web Applications
While there are many types of modern web applications, addressing many different needs, they all have some characteristics in common.

They are standards-focused. To have the broadest reach across multiple platforms and devices, applications attempt to implement the current and evolving standards and adopt future standards once ratified.
They are interactive. Modern web applications keep the user engaged by providing constant feedback on their actions. This feedback can come in the form of messages, animations to hide or show elements, mouse-over effects, drag and drop feedback, the automatic refreshing of screen data, animation of various elements, or the implementation of fade-in or fade-out effects. Interactive applications leverage the fast JavaScript engines in modern browsers to perform their client-side tasks.
They limit full-page reloads. Modern web applications seek to limit the number of full-page reloads. Reloads are much slower than a localized Ajax call to update a portion of the UI. Full-page reloads also limit the ability to animate state or page changes. By not performing a full-page reload, users can be kept in context, providing a fluid experience as they navigate from one task to another.
They are asynchronous. Modern web applications use Ajax to dynamically load data, page fragments, or other assets instead of performing a full-page reload to acquire data or HTML content. Because the loading of data is asynchronous, the UI is able to stay responsive and keep the user informed while the data request is being fulfilled. This asynchronous on-demand loading also reduces application response time because requests can be tuned to return only the data and other content that needs to change.
They manage data. When applicable, modern web applications provide client-side data caching and prefetching to boost client-side performance. This enables the UI to immediately respond to user input gestures because it does not have to make a call to the server for data. Data caching also serves to minimize the impact on server resources, increasing application scalability because fewer calls to the server are required.
Technologies
We will be using Lots of Technologies on this Project and since I am Just Getting Started to let’s List the Basic Technologies we will be using and More will be added based on the needs of each section.

Ajax
For over 10 years, the web has benefited from the ability to replace full-page reloads with Ajax calls. But given the advances in standards such as CSS3 and HTML5, browsers adherence to those standards, and the arrival of powerful, cross-browser JavaScript frameworks, we have all the tools necessary to build highly engaging client-side experiences.

Ajax facilitates a paradigm change in web development from the traditional full-page reload model of server-centric applications to rich, responsive client-centric applications. The client receives data and updates the UI using JavaScript. Bandwidth requirements are minimized because the server responds to requests by returning just the requested data instead of HTML pages (and all their elements) along with the data. The application runs faster because the data requests take less time to complete, and the UI is quickly updated without a full-page reload. Asynchronous calls are essential to keeping interactive and immersive applications responsive from the user’s perspective.

JavaScript
JavaScript is a dynamic, functional, prototypal language that has a very close relationship with the document object model (DOM). For both JavaScript and the DOM, there are features you can use with confidence and others you should avoid. Over the past ten years, the web development community has learned a great deal about how to use these together to maximize success. See the “Further Reading” section for resources that explain the recommended ways of using JavaScript. Project Silk adheres to these practices, but we do not present a primer here.

As is true with all environments, you will be most successful using it as intended. If you aren’t presently writing JavaScript code according to the patterns currently accepted in the JavaScript community, be sure your team has time to become familiar with them, because you may be surprised. For example, the Project Silk team members who had recently worked in the Microsoft .NET environment needed to ramp up on the following aspects of JavaScript:

JavaScript uses object-oriented concepts, but classes and inheritance hierarchies are not the same as in other .NET languages such as Visual C# and Visual Basic.NET.
Understanding closures and variable scoping is important. They are used intentionally and often by allowing variables defined within one scope to be used in another function.
The object that the this keyword refers to changes based on where it is used. For example in a single method, this may refer to the object the method is defined on, and in a loop within that same method this may refer to the current item of the collection being iterated over. You should understand its rules.
Objects without type definitions are very common and use an object literal syntax. The commas between properties and functions used in these object literals may cause syntax errors until you are familiar with them.
jQuery
jQuery is an open-source JavaScript library that addresses the challenges of working with the DOM across browsers. It has a straightforward API that can be divided into two calling conventions:

Functions are called on the jQuery object itself. For example, the extend function merges the properties and methods of two different objects together. It looks like this: $.extend(targetObject, objectToMerge).
Methods are called on the wrapped set. A wrapped set is the result of a query that uses a selector to find elements in the DOM. To call a method on a wrapped set of elements, a selector is used to select elements in the DOM. For example, to add the listing CSS class to all ul elements directly inside a div element, $(‘div ul’).addClass(‘listing’) can be used.
jQuery also provides features to raise and handle events, make Ajax requests, and process the data returned from Ajax requests. To be successful developing with jQuery, you should:

Know that the selector syntax uses and extends the CSS selector syntax. The better you’re able to leverage this syntax, the cleaner your HTML can be.
Understand what the wrapped set is, how it’s different from an array of DOM elements, and which you’re working with at any given time. For example, when using $.each, inside the callback, this is not wrapped.
Understand that animations are asynchronous and are queued. Use a named queue or the stop method to gain more control over how the animations behave.
Modernizr
In the past, the client-side application would use navigator.userAgent to determine which browser was in use and choose its code paths accordingly. Today, the accepted practice is to explicitly detect each feature the application intends to use.

Modernizr is an open-source JavaScript library that detects the support for browser features (geolocation, canvas, SVG, border-radius, etc.) and exposes its findings in CSS and JavaScript. Once a script reference to Modernizr is included, Modernizr will add a CSS class to the html element for each feature it can detect. If the feature isn’t supported, the CSS class will start with no-. For example, if a browser supports canvas and not webgl, its html element will look like this: . Modernizr also exposes a Modernizr JavaScript object that has Boolean properties for each feature it can detect.

Lets Have a Break for now and The next Post will be about the Back end Basic Architecture so we can have something to kick of our Web Project with.

This essentially about Javascript. The opinion reflects the opinion of many web developers I know and whose work I watch with a professional interest.

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You’re not a web developer, are you? Or used modern apps such as, of all things, gmail or trello?

I’m probably not a bona fide web developer in your opinion, since I’ve only designed and built a dozen or so sites, and I’m not saying the vast majority of web developers don’t use all this new newfangled stuff.
That article you quoted is all about web apps. I’m talking about simple websites, which I believe the OP mentioned an interest in.

The site(s) will be fairly static, aside from a blog page, with absolutely no animation (this is an accounting business, after all). In other words, fairly simple.

All I’m saying is all this new newfangled stuff isn’t really necessary, unless you want an interactive site or depend on advertising on your site for income, or just want to dazzle your visitors with a lot of flash and animation.
Just because the vast majority of web developers use all those scripts doesn’t mean that’s the only way.

What does Gmail have to do with this? Personally, I don’t use Google for anything. I prefer my privacy, which these days most folks don’t care about. Hence the popularity of such sites as Facebook, Twitter, Gmail (or anything Google).

Honestly, I’m not trying to get into an argument here, or ‘My ideas are better than yours’. Just pointing out possibilities.

I guess I’m just old fashioned. I like sites that deliver the content I’m looking for , without all the animations, flash, fancy fade in/fade out. To me, personally, I find that stuff annoying.

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I’m probably not a bona fide web developer in your opinion, since I’ve only designed and built a dozen or so sites, and I’m not saying the vast majority of web developers don’t use all this new newfangled stuff.
That article you quoted is all about web apps. I’m talking about simple websites, which I believe the OP mentioned an interest in.

All I’m saying is all this new newfangled stuff isn’t really necessary, unless you want an interactive site or depend on advertising on your site for income, or just want to dazzle your visitors with a lot of flash and animation.
Just because the vast majority of web developers use all those scripts doesn’t mean that’s the only way.

What does Gmail have to do with this? Personally, I don’t use Google for anything. I prefer my privacy, which these days most folks don’t care about. Hence the popularity of such sites as Facebook, Twitter, Gmail (or anything Google).

Honestly, I’m not trying to get into an argument here, or ‘My ideas are better than yours’. Just pointing out possibilities.

I guess I’m just old fashioned. I like sites that deliver the content I’m looking for , without all the animations, flash, fancy fade in/fade out. To me, personally, I find that stuff annoying.

I don’t know what you do or don’t do and I wouldn’t dare saying anything about someone I don’t know and that I certainly respect, as a Lounge member. But, among other things, I develop websites professionally and I try to be aware of the technologies that affect my job, reading, studying and trying to learn about any relevant technologies.
While doing that, I try to accompany the work of many people who are respected as people who contribute to the advancement of web development.

Javascript goes well beyond fancy fade ins and fade outs. I think it’s telling that you choose to point out those fade ins and fade outs as things that Javascript can be used for, while forgetting a much more relevant contribution, in my opinion.

I use Javascript in other ways. I use it, for example, to build interactive forms that would be incredibly harder to achieve without it. Javascript allows building user interactions with a degree of control that is not possible without it. It allows you to introduce context to user interactions in ways that would be impractical, much harder, or impossible without it. It allows you to validate user input in ways that would be much less friendlier without it. It allows for a responsiveness of user interfaces that would be impossible without it – slow page submissions are, today, what I would call, old fashioned.

I don’t build a form today, without validating with jQuery validation and submitting it through ajax, adding the result of the submission to the interface, using jQuery. I don’t build a complex form without using KnockoutJS, which allows you so many possibilities in terms of having an interactive, smart interface, that it can’t be ignored, if you care to provide your clients with the best the web development technology has to offer.

Javascript, as I said many times, allows you to provide easy to use, intuitive interactions with users, really great user experiences. If you develop websites, maybe you should look at it, as there is absolutely no way to create the quality of user interactions that Javascript provides, without it.

Gmail is an excellent example of the use of Javascript to provide a good user experience and they were among the first to use it to build great user experiences. I probably like Google less than you do, but that doesn’t prevent me to acknowledge their contribution to web technologies. That’s why I mentioned Gmail, because not only it can be used as a good example of the quality of the interactions Javascript makes possible, but it has exposed such interactions to millions of users, raising the bar on what users expect of web apps or websites.

You don’t even need to leave the Lounge to see how Javascript is helpful. All your replies are submitted through Ajax, which accounts for a lot friendlier user interface. Javascript really is all over the web and sometimes those who use it don’t even realize it :).

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I think it’s telling that you choose to point out those fade ins and fade outs as things that JavaScript can be used for, while forgetting a much more relevant contribution, in my opinion.

I’m not a professional web developer, nor do I want to be. I just like doing it for friends and others that like what I do and ask me to do work for them.
I’m fairly aware of the capabilities of JavaScript. I was just making a generic point, rather than going through the whole list of JavaScript capabilities. I’m surprised you didn’t catch that.

While I respect you as a professional web developer, I prefer not to use all the modern technology for web design, preferring basic HTML, CSS, a little php and some JavaScript where needed. With those languages I’m able to build what I want and what those that ask me to do their sites want.
If someone contacts me to do the type of work you do, I simply refer them to someone else.

I do validate my work at the W3C Markup Validation Service.

As I mentioned, I’m not a big fan of the sites that are being built with all the modern apps and technology, so I build my sites to what I like.
I generally keep as much JavaScript blocked as I can get away with, so a lot of the new technologies don’t get in my way of getting to the content I’m looking for.
Just my way. One man’s trash is another man’s gold.

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I’m not a professional web developer, nor do I want to be. I just like doing it for friends and others that like what I do and ask me to do work for them.
I’m fairly aware of the capabilities of JavaScript. I was just making a generic point, rather than going through the whole list of JavaScript capabilities. I’m surprised you didn’t catch that.
[/quote]
Well, if your reference to fade-ins and fade-outs was not a way to dismiss Javascript as a “gimmicky” technology, I apologize. I will point out that I have never coded fade-ins and fade-outs myself. I don’t fancy animations, either, but they have their place, when used properly.

While I respect you as a professional web developer, I prefer not to use all the modern technology for web design, preferring basic HTML, CSS, a little php and some JavaScript where needed. With those languages I’m able to build what I want and what those that ask me to do their sites want.
If someone contacts me to do the type of work you do, I simply refer them to someone else.

I do validate my work at the W3C Markup Validation Service.

We all have our preferences and that’s how things will always be. Nothing wrong with that. Javascript is definitely not my favorite language, but that doesn’t prevent me from using it where it has its place and I use it ever more often.

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Well, if your reference to fade-ins and fade-outs was not a way to dismiss Javascript as a “gimmicky” technology, I apologize. I will point out that I have never coded fade-ins and fade-outs myself. I don’t fancy animations, either, but they have their place, when used properly.

No problem. I probably should have made myself clearer.
I agree that animations occasionally serve a purpose, or at least add a little something, but when I use them (rarely) I just use an animated gif, since I don’t need anything fancier.

We all have our preferences and that’s how things will always be. Nothing wrong with that.

I agree. I believe we should turn this thread back to the OP’s original concerns and questions, as it seems we’ve both gotten a little away form it in our own little discussion.

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I agree. I believe we should turn this thread back to the OP’s original concerns and questions, as it seems we’ve both gotten a little away form it in our own little discussion.

Agreed :).

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Rui, after all the scares of the past, how secure is JavaScript now?

Eliminate spare time: start programming PowerShell

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Rui, after all the scares of the past, how secure is JavaScript now?

I think browser security has increased a lot. You can’t say holes are not found, but browsers deal with javascript a lot better, even if you are still at the hands of whoever codes a website. You can’t say Javascript is insecure, just that it could be used to explore browsers security holes. Things are a lot better, with the use of sandboxes and restrictions on what javascript can do.

As always, be smart about what you do on the web, but browsers are way more secure than 10 years ago.

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…the web is running on Javascript and it will run more so every single day that goes by.

I know virtually nothing about Javascript other than to say my sites depend upon it for displaying content, and there (in the area of templates or “themes” and such) is where the dynamics of all of this can be quite challenging. Professional Developers can be expensive, but WordPress has many free themes available that are “mobile-ready” and/or “responsive” within any viewport.

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Thanks again for everyone’s continued replies. My apologies for not saying so more recently, but I hit a deadline at work that needs to be addressed (IRS review of an education program — not a tax review, an education review, although it happens to be for an organization of tax professionals).

Just to clarify a little further for those who are responding to the original question:

1. The web site itself will be fairly static, although there will be several pages. There will be on landing page for the actual company, and one each for my two lines of business. All will link to the same “Contact us” and “Privacy policy” pages, but each of the businesses will have a separate page for showing rates.

2. Each line of business will have its own blog, but those come later. Right now I am using Facebook for that purpose, while I get into the habit of actually writing something on a routine basis, but that’s obviously not the best way to be going.

3. Having used data modeling tools from their infancy I do understand the concepts of object-oriented programming. I’ve never done any, though, although I’ve done enough troubleshooting to see that it’s not much different, conceptually, from earlier programming methods. I just have trouble getting my head around all the new terminology (I’m used to programs, subroutines, functions, and all that). If I had the need to use it I’d pick up on it pretty quickly.

4. I’m not a complete novice at HTML and CSS; I used them to do my web site directly on my old host. The result was a piece of garbage, though, and not something I wanted to just copy over (and it wasn’t at all mobile-friendly).

5. I’m purposely haven’t named my host to this point, but you can rest assured I did my research before choosing them. I do own my own domain names, they use Softaculous to download practically everything (including WordPress, which I’ll probably use to drive my blogs when I reach that stage), but their web page designer is confusing and the available themes are worse than lame. While I know enough not to use the Support Department for training (I did my penance in those roles, too!), I have needed support two or three times; their response times are short and the technicians are knowledgeable.

I know I have a lot to learn about web design, which is why I’m looking for a simple way to start, but just wanted to let you know I’m not starting absolutely from Level 0 — let’s call it somewhere in the range of 2 to 5 out of 100.

As before, thanks for everyone’s input. Much appreciated!

Dave

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Thanks again for everyone’s continued replies. My apologies for not saying so more recently, but I hit a deadline at work that needs to be addressed (IRS review of an education program — not a tax review, an education review, although it happens to be for an organization of tax professionals).

Just to clarify a little further for those who are responding to the original question:

1. The web site itself will be fairly static, although there will be several pages. There will be on landing page for the actual company, and one each for my two lines of business. All will link to the same “Contact us” and “Privacy policy” pages, but each of the businesses will have a separate page for showing rates.

2. Each line of business will have its own blog, but those come later. Right now I am using Facebook for that purpose, while I get into the habit of actually writing something on a routine basis, but that’s obviously not the best way to be going.

3. Having used data modeling tools from their infancy I do understand the concepts of object-oriented programming. I’ve never done any, though, although I’ve done enough troubleshooting to see that it’s not much different, conceptually, from earlier programming methods. I just have trouble getting my head around all the new terminology (I’m used to programs, subroutines, functions, and all that). If I had the need to use it I’d pick up on it pretty quickly.

4. I’m not a complete novice at HTML and CSS; I used them to do my web site directly on my old host. The result was a piece of garbage, though, and not something I wanted to just copy over (and it wasn’t at all mobile-friendly).

5. I’m purposely haven’t named my host to this point, but you can rest assured I did my research before choosing them. I do own my own domain names, they use Softaculous to download practically everything (including WordPress, which I’ll probably use to drive my blogs when I reach that stage), but their web page designer is confusing and the available themes are worse than lame. While I know enough not to use the Support Department for training (I did my penance in those roles, too!), I have needed support two or three times; their response times are short and the technicians are knowledgeable.

I know I have a lot to learn about web design, which is why I’m looking for a simple way to start, but just wanted to let you know I’m not starting absolutely from Level 0 — let’s call it somewhere in the range of 2 to 5 out of 100.

As before, thanks for everyone’s input. Much appreciated!

Dave

I have never found an online designer that was useful for anything, really. They are ok if you want to use something that is already done. If you want to build one, well, a few years back, when I started with the web, I rapidly realized nothing gives you the control of working at the code level, not the graphical level.

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…haven’t named my host to this point, but you can rest assured I did my research before choosing them…I have needed support two or three times; their response times are short and the technicians are knowledgeable.

My own mileage varies a bit there, but less than three years ago I had never even heard of FileZilla and was quite fortunate in encountering some Support Techs who were quite patient and occasionally even willing and able to go beyond their job descriptions.

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Well I personally would recommend WeBuilder http://www.webuilderapp.com/

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