Unicorn Friday – what do you want from updating?

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Microsoft product manager for Windows updating Aria tweets today: If I were to have a magic unicorn that could grant one wish that would give you what
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Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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SupremeLaW, Nibbled To Death By Ducks

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For a small business, my wish would be for an easier method, if a monthly patch causes a problem, to uninstall it and choose how long to block it from returning.  Also I would want an option while uninstalling to provide feedback and optionally system logs about why I was uninstalling.

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Susan Bradley wrote:

For those that are consumers/home users … I think there is one more item we want that EVERYONE wants: That of quality updates that don’t break our stuff.

I have one instance of an update breaking something when I was running Windows 8, “What to do when DISM is broken?”    One running Windows 10 in 2016 that I don’t really think was caused by the update, “KB3194496 Broke Windows Firewall“, and one in Windows 10 in 2017 when Windows drivers sneaked in under the guise of HP printer software, “New Windows 10 Software for HP Printer (not a fun day…)“.

The common thread in all three is that I don’t postpone or hide any Windows update other than drivers (blocked via Group Policy), and getting back on track in short order via restoring drive images.

I’m now dual booting Windows 10 Pro/Windows 11 Pro primarily using Windows 11 Pro with StartAllBack as my daily driver.  I have yet to have an incident in Windows 11 Pro; time will tell.  Generally speaking, updates don’t break my stuff.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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a

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How about more honesty and transparency? Tell us exactly what, everything, that an update actually does, like KB4023057. And tell us why we cannot decline to install it, or permanently uninstall it.

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wavy, GeeBeeDee, Nibbled To Death By Ducks, ChrisAVWood

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Hire 0Patch to take over your patching.  Faster and more efficient then MS. Instant micropatches as soon as the problem arises.

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Alex5723, Nibbled To Death By Ducks

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They don’t patch everything, just ones they can reverse engineer (just keep that in mind).

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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In one word “LESS”.  Now seriously, one look at the Aria tweet with it’s lolli pop cartoonish setup leads me to treat this as another piece of MS ‘it’ll never happen’ detritus – and from the Update Manager! It’s no wonder the monthly updating is such a boring painful experience, lacking simple information easily understandable by the average user. MS pipe dream.

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better testing, I suppose, but I always image before I update, and I have yet to need to restore. win 11 21H2 and Mint (which at the moment I am not using – I went back to win for tax season and have stayed there.)

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bbearren

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I find it interesting that Microsoft couldn’t even imagine that “quality updates that don’t break our stuff” would be something someone might wish for.

Win 7 Pro, 64-Bit, Group B ESU,Ivy Bridge i3-3110M, 2.4GHz, 4GB, XP Mode VM, WordPerfect

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GeeBeeDee, Nibbled To Death By Ducks

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Hear, Hear!

(“There, there. Where, where?”)

I have a memory that actually goes back to a time when Patches/Updates _didn’t break anything_! (Sometime around  XP, methinks.)

I swear!

Win7 Pro SP1 64-bit, Dell Latitude E6330 ("The Tank"), Intel CORE i5 "Ivy Bridge", 12GB RAM, Group "0Patch", Multiple Air-Gapped backup drives in different locations. Linux Mint Newbie
--
"The more kinks you put in the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the pipes." -Scotty

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I couldn’t agree with you more.   Back in the XP days, I was eager to install updates on the day they came out.  A fine example of “the good old days” indeed.  I seem to remember reading that M$ eliminated their QA section somewhere along the line – which caused my update approach to change.   I’ve been paying close attention to Woody’s Defcon status for a long time now!

 

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let me count the ways:

• no forced updates. windows is already a disease, automatic updates are generally never a good idea (look up “node-ipc” for a recent example) and combining the two has been one of the greatest tragedies of the 21st century, don’t even get me started on pluton
• updates that don’t mysteriously cripple system performance or inexplicably break things that should never, ever be broken
• updates that actually fix vulnerabilities the first time instead of them taking like six months to fix printnightmare or whatever
• the return of an actual qa team that tests updates before they’re shipped instead of a trillion dollar company breaking their own software every time they try “fixing” it because they use their own customers as beta testing
• the winsxs folder not bloating up with another 50 gigabytes of crud every time i do something as simple as installing a bunch of monthly security fixes
• not having to restart windows every single time i replace some kind of system file
• microsoft not sneaking in more telemetry and advertising and useless crap (how many people asked for weather on the taskbar?) onto *my* computer that i didn’t ask for. why has this been normalized

let’s just say i’m still running windows 7 for…. many, many reasons

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Mele20, Still Anonymous, GeeBeeDee

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All good stuff.

I would add “clear differentiation between feature set updates and bug fixes”, with the ability to accept the latter and ignore the former.

I also agree with the idea of greater respect for non-Enterprise users, especially in Home users having the ability to manage their machines directly, rather than Microsoft forcing management by Microsoft, especially in regards to when updates are accepted. And yes, that means having more QA work done before release, rather than simply using Home users as the testers that will finish debugging before Enterprise users start adopting.

I would also add “Microsoft respecting existing user preferences, and not resetting to Microsoft-preferred defaults on updates”.  If I turn something off, it needs to stay off.

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More control like we used to have pre-Windows 10 where I could easily turn off Windows Update and then not have to worry about anything updating without my explicit consent. This also means no background self-healing processes (SIH Client, WaaSMedic, etc.) that attempt to circumvent my decision to turn off updating and the system acting against my wishes and instead those of Microsoft. I will update when I’m ready after taking a system image with Macrium Reflect. This is why I have stayed on Windows 8.1 (Pro with Open Shell) and plan to move to Linux when support ends for 8.1.

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I would like to be able to multi-select patches in WSUS and hit the approve button once. I would like to see better quality control on patches. I shouldn’t have to wait 3 weeks every month to safely patch.

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EricW wrote:

I couldn’t agree with you more.   Back in the XP days, I was eager to install updates on the day they came out.  A fine example of “the good old days” indeed.  I seem to remember reading that M$ eliminated their QA section somewhere along the line – which caused my update approach to change.   I’ve been paying close attention to Woody’s Defcon status for a long time now!

 

Agree. Windows Xp updates were less likely to mess up your computers or have 600  or more workers unable to work since Windows 10 updates mess the ******* ***** everything up. It happens almost every update MS team release now.

 

My one wish would be to get Windows Xp back or at least the QA that was done during that time that make updates less of a head.

 

Windows 10 is too  much spyware with its telemetry that does not seems to fix anything that they break.

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https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/how-to-fix-common-windows-xp-problems-fix/

I distinctly remember WAY more blue screen of death incidents with Windows XP.  There was a specific update that patched the kernel.  In the process of patching the kernel it exposed a root kit.  We had GAZILLIONS of people with dead machines hitting the forums.

Time erases memories of patching hurt.  XP wasn’t better to patch.  It too threw off confusing annoying patch errors that never led to a solution.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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Yes, you bring up unpleasant memories. Back in the days, blue screens happened. More often than we would like to remember, and not just on XP or ME(or 95 or 98)((and vista and 7)). Good reminder. Things HAVE gotten better in that way. The NT kern was supposed to prevent that. I guess now it finally does.

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We love Windows 7 it’s our favorite! (when it ended support)

We hate UAC on Windows 7 (when it came out)

We love XP it’s our favorite (when it ended support)

We hate XP sp2.  We are turning off the firewall.  It’s crap!  Nothing works.  Our vendors hate it (when SP2 came out)

I’m just saying we forget a LOT of pain.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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Yes, sometimes we forget the bad. (it is good to let go!) I think what I liked most about 7 was the menu setup. I did eventually realize that there were folks out there making everything after that look like 7. I didn’t care for the grotesque size of 10, but I notice that I simply adjusted. Now on 11, it is simply an OS with a different name, but, with simple mods, looks and works the same as, well, 7. I didn’t go to 10 for a year or 2 and probably good that I didn’t as I avoided a lot of pain, but when i did go, it was simply another name on the OS. I could easily make it look/work the same for me. I didn’t wait but changed when 11 became available. Perhaps I am lucky, and I did image everything before I changed in case I wasn’t, but haven’t had a problem. Just another opsys that works. (I am back up from a hiatus on Mint). This goes well for me. I like simple-that-works!

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Well at least it was not a “maybe something is wrong” scenario.

Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.

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I remember more on Windows 10. Every  month have issues with it.

Windows Xp had less. It had them but were like every 8-12 months a part than every month like Windows 10. Even now, our 300 computers with Windows Xp have not crashed or had a blue screen in over 3 years. Last time was base MS release a bug update that we paid for.

 

Windows 10 give useless message like this:

https://www.troubleshootingcentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/critical_process_died_error_message_01.png?ezimgfmt=ng%3Awebp%2Fngcb15%2Frs%3Adevice%2Frscb15-1

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anonymous wrote:

EricW wrote:

I couldn’t agree with you more.   Back in the XP days, I was eager to install updates on the day they came out.  A fine example of “the good old days” indeed.  I seem to remember reading that M$ eliminated their QA section somewhere along the line – which caused my update approach to change.   I’ve been paying close attention to Woody’s Defcon status for a long time now!

 

Agree. Windows Xp updates were less likely to mess up your computers or have 600  or more workers unable to work since Windows 10 updates mess the ******* ***** everything up. It happens almost every update MS team release now.

 

My one wish would be to get Windows Xp back or at least the QA that was done during that time that make updates less of a head.

 

Windows 10 is too  much spyware with its telemetry that does not seems to fix anything that they break.

anonymous wrote:

I remember more on Windows 10. Every  month have issues with it.

Windows Xp had less. It had them but were like every 8-12 months a part than every month like Windows 10. Even now, our 300 computers with Windows Xp have not crashed or had a blue screen in over 3 years. Last time was base MS release a bug update that we paid for.

 

Windows 10 give useless message like this:

https://www.troubleshootingcentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/critical_process_died_error_message_01.png?ezimgfmt=ng%3Awebp%2Fngcb15%2Frs%3Adevice%2Frscb15-1

Second that. Windows Xp was the best OS ever. XP crashed less often than Windows 10 after updates. The XP programmers created better updates with QA. Now Windows 10 has no QA and release garbage with every update. It is garbage in and garbage out in MS now. There is no accountability at MS decide days.

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This suggestion will require some explaining, so please SKIP, or be patient until you have read all the way to the end.

If you have questions e.g. to elaborate on the “numerous reasons” mentioned in item (1), please do so in REPLY(s):

(1)  for reasons too numerous to itemize here, we ALWAYS format the primary drive with drive letters C: for the OS @ ~100GB, and the remainder E: as a dedicated data partition (D: is the ODD);  space limitations are a thing of the past, and 1TB drives are now plentiful and cost-effective;  100GB is only ONE-TENTH of a 1,000GB drive, ONE-TWENTIETH of a 2,000GB drive;  and, we always store a copy of the latest drive image file(s) in E: and in all other dedicated data partitions;

(2)  we became and remain a BIG FAN of Partition Wizard’s “Migrate OS” feature, but it presently requires the target drive to be entirely UNALLOCATED;

(3)  the drive image program we initially purchased, many years ago, came with a Rescue CD-ROM which took forever to startup;  plus, the software on that CD-ROM did NOT have the RAID device drivers we needed for our RAID-0 array hosting C: (for speed);  these difficulties motivated us to find and implement a better solution …

(4)  the ideal “Migrate OS” feature should support a fast way of “cloning” C: to the primary partition on a second drive without disturbing E: ;  presently, this can be done with the restore feature in Acronis True Image software (and similar software from other third-party vendors), but the clone of C: must already exist;

(5)  what we ultimately want is two (2) or more IDENTICAL sets of System Software in the primary partitions of two (2) or more separate physical drives, and each can be selected with a quick motherboard BIOS change;  we added “or more” because this scheme can and should be generalized to any number of physical drives hosted inside a single chassis or external storage enclosure;

(6)  there is a certain amount of housekeeping that should be automated, chiefly there should be no changes in any of the other Windows drive letters merely because the Boot Drive in the motherboard BIOS has been changed:

C:/E: can become Y:/E: and

Y:/Z: can become C:/Z:

for example, leaving drive letter E: entirely intact;

(7)  this general scheme has failed at times in the past chiefly because the boot record on an MBR partition was not initialized correctly:  the requisite automation should fix this problem in a manner that is transparent to the User so as to make re-booting from a different drive entirely painless.

 

p.s.  I plan to submit this general concept to the folks at Partition Wizard, to suggest that they consider adding the necessary feature(s) to a future version of that excellent software.

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SupremeLaW wrote:

for reasons too numerous to itemize here, we ALWAYS format the primary drive with drive letters C: for the OS

Windows always defaults to C: for the System/OS drive when it boots.  I dual boot Windows 10 and Windows 11.  One is on drive A: when it’s not booted, the other is on drive B: when it’s not booted.  Either of them become C: when booted.

I’ve been dual booting Windows for a couple of decades+ now, and I started using A: and B: with Windows 7.

See this portion of my website for more detail.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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Does anyone else have any positive experience using third-party driver maintenance software?

http://www.drivereasy.com appears to work almost all of the time;  but, there was one instance several months ago when the SATA chipset driver in a Windows 10 PC needed to be rolled back, after installing the new driver downloaded by the drivereasy.com freeware.

It would be interesting to know where a company like drivereasy.com obtains what they claim are “the latest” device drivers.

https://toptenbestsoftware.org/comparisons/driver-update/

Top 10 Best Driver Update Programs

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I don’t trust nor use any third-party driver maintenance software.
Drivers updates on my Windows 10 Pro are blocked.
I don’t trust nor use any third-party software maintenance software (I use free portable SUMo just to check what’s new).

For GPU drivers you can follow my GPU updates post on Lenovo’s gaming laptops forum.

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Still Anonymous, a, bbearren

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I second that – you don’t need that. Else you will likely get junk installed to your system that you don’t need or want and may make things wonky.

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I also agree.  Although I tend to be enthusiastic about updating software, drivers are different, and my experience is that there’s enough bugginess that there’s real risk of introducing instability.  Although I haven’t gone so far to block driver updates, I usually try to avoid updating unless there is a known reason to do so.

Beyond that, there is also the consideration of getting driver updates directly from the originating manufacturers, rather than getting them from Microsoft. The manufacturers know their stuff better than Microsoft ever will.

Although Microsoft Update makes things easy for Microsoft versions, for a lot of things, it take some effort to get drivers.  Sometimes, download pages are hard to find, and even if you do find them, it can be a challenge to make sure you download the correct driver.  And some vendors (especially video cards) may make you use their own monitoring/maintenance tool, including having to have a user ID that you log into to get updates.

SUMo (or its driver-only companion DUMo) is a good way of getting read-only listings of  what’s out there.

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wavy, Alex5723

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