Why Windows 11 may no longer be for Home PCs

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I’ll preface this by saying I’m frustrated.  This may seem like a rant (and I’m sure it may be to some extent).  I just got off a five (5) hour support call with Microsoft.

A few weeks ago I noticed that File Explorer had been slow to react, it often took 1-3 minutes to open a directory, or take actions (file copy/delete/format etc.)  This was as true for large directories as it was for small ones.  Drive type didn’t matter, USB, SSD, NVMe or network directories were equally slow.  I own not 1 but 3 Windows 11 Pro machines and have been using Windows since version 1.03.  While not a software expert I consider myself reasonably adept.

It started with one machine but eventually over the past few weeks it began to happen on all 3 machines.  I took the usual steps, restarted File Explorer, made sure the drives were in good shape and ran assorted tests, nothing showed up.

Next I went to the Microsoft website and looked over their support section.  It seems that this problem has existed for at least a year.  I tried several of the suggestions on the site, none of them worked.  So, today I called Microsoft support.

Initially they checked the usual things (was I updated), and found that yes, I had installed all of the updates like a good little Microsoft fanboy.  Then they ran some of the same checks (sfc scannow/ DISM / etc and nothing worked.  They then attempted a “refresh, on the system.  It also failed to solve the problem, so next they moved it to 2nd level support.

The second level support ran the same tests, then called me out because I hadn’t installed all of the “optional” driver updates (Intel sends out a new Bluetooth/network driver about once a week) and one of the machines didn’t have it.  He then tried to reinstall the software without deleting my files.  None of this worked.

He then told me the only solution was to do a clean install of Windows 11 Pro.  When I asked him why he told me it was he best way to make sure the problem was solved.  Stupid me, I asked him what the problem was.  He then told me it had to be corrupt data files.  Now that might sound reasonable except for one thing;  Microsoft Word and Excel can read the directories with no problem.  So can VLC, Photoshop, Adobe Bridge and a dozen other programs I use daily.  Only File Explorer can’t.  But he believes the only solution is to start from scratch, do a clean install and then reinstall a few dozen programs on each of three high end machines.

Then I asked another dumb question.  Since you don’t know what caused this, how often will I need to do one of these “Clean” installs?  Every month, every six months…

He told me they are still working on completing it.

So, why the hell are we as consumers buying this software.  How many home users are going to be willing to spend 5 hours on the phone and then another dozen hours or so restoring their PCs after a fresh install.

I don’t see Windows in the home PC market much longer.  Ironically, enough my older PCs running Windows 10 even a very old ThinkPad tablet never have a problem.

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Your problem sounds like a good reason to keep several end of month (before installing Windows updates) cloned copies of your C drive.

We backup our C drive daily to a second internal drive and weekly on an external drive. We also copy data files to an external drive weekly.

Then if the File Explorer or other Windows problems pop up we can go back and reinstall the last working clone or backup and then recover any missing data files from the external drives.

Then again, if you need to do a clean re-installation of Windows 11 consider installing Windows 10 instead.

 

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Kathy

When it comes to backups and cloned copies I’m fine.  But five hours on the line with Microsoft and the troubleshooting steps they tried (and failed) would be more than any home user would put up with.  Let’s face it.  My three machines are all new, built in the last two years and started with fresh installs.  If we have to keep reloading them this is not a production product.  This is an alpha test at best.

I got an email this morning from Microsoft.  They are going to try again with their 3rd Tier support guy.  Let’s see what happens.

FWIW I loaded Explorer++ and it’s working fine on the other machines.  This is strictly a file explorer error.

Mike

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Some of this sounds like a file explorer indexing overload (multiple drives or areas that don’t need to be indexed). Eliminating multiple drives and rebuilding your search index might help. The indexing troubleshooter might find an issue as well.

https://www.ghacks.net/2021/10/26/how-to-manage-search-indexing-on-windows-11/

Desktop Asus TUF X299 Mark 1, CPU: Intel Core i7-7820X Skylake-X 8-Core 3.6 GHz, RAM: 32GB, GPU: Nvidia GTX 1050 Ti 4GB. Display: Four 27" 1080p screens 2 over 2 quad.

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Tech

If only that were true and it was high on my list of subjects since this is a media server in my house with over 100TB of data on multiple drives.

However, the exact same problem is occurring on two other machines.  One has a single NVMe drive and is used primarily for online gaming.  Very few files, overpowered processor and graphics card and plenty of RAM and VRAM.

The other reason I don’t believe that is because I can open these directories, not only with other Microsoft programs (word, excel, paint) but all my 3rd party programs do not experience these delays.

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Microsoft support for consumers is the bottom of the rung. If they can’t figure it out they tell you to do a clean install. I will do a repair install over the top. I WILL NOT do a clean install. He/they are not getting good information from Microsoft, rather they will regurgitate what they read on the web.

In the email you got from support – see if there is a manager email. Send a response back and COMPLAIN.

Now as to your issue, have you installed any third party file explorer or menu system? As TechTango says – rebuild the index.

And to Kathy, search on Windows 10 also breaks and often doesn’t work. Sometimes you have to consider using a third party search tool. https://www.x1.com/products/x1-search/

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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Susan

They have scheduled another call for 9 est today to take another wack at it.  Judging from the MS blog and some Google searches I’ve found several hundred people with the same issue.  Since I have three machines with different configs/loads/usage it will be hard for them to simply run a script.  When we shared screens I could show them specific cases where it failed when every other 3rd party app was able to access the data without hesitation.

The sad part is I’ve been working with Microsoft since the early 80s (longer if you count some Apple products), this is one of the worst ever.

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Susan

Just as a follow up.

Microsoft called yesterday and spent just under two hours going over two of the three machines and capturing logs. Since all three machines run essentially the same 3rd party software I offered them the 3rd “working” machine but they didn’t feel it necessary for troubleshooting it against the others.  (Personally, I ran Belarc advisor to make sure all were using the exact same versions for my own peace of mind).

Next Microsoft call is Thursday.  Wonder how long they’ll stretch this out.  Temporarily added Explorer ++ to one of them after the call and it, naturally, is working fine.

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Are these home built or from an OEM? I’ve had issues with Dell’s support assistant causing severe performance problems. I just uninstalled it and that resolved the issue.

--Joe

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All three are homebuilt as follows:

System 1 – Asus “Edition 30” X299, I9-10980, 64GB, Asus “Tuf” 3060 GPU (Seagate Firecuda 4TB NVMe primary drive, 5 Seagate 18tb mechanical Iron Wolf drives, Windows 11 Pro -22h2 build 22621.1635

System 2 – Asus “Hero” Z690, I9-12900k, 64GB, EVGA 3090 GPU (Seagate Firecuda 4TB NVMe primary drive – no additional drives.  Windows 11 Pro – 22h2 build 22621.1635

System 3 – Asus “Prime” Z790, I5, 12600k, 32GB, no discrete GPU only onboard Intel 770 graphics, (Seagate Firecuda 4TB NVME primary drive, 2 Intel 670P 2TB drives.  Windows 11 Pro – 22h2 build 22621.1635

System 3 is the only one not having the issue.

All machines have Microsoft 365 office, I don’t put the Asus packages on the machines except for their unique drivers.  All three were fresh installs on new machines from thumb drives using media creator and a license purchased directly from Microsoft.

The only major difference is the lower end processor, memory and lack of GPU on the working machine.  Maybe MS can’t handle high end 🙂

 

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I’ll assume you are using NTFS on all devices but will ask if there are filesystem differences between devices? (nice rigs btw)

Windows - commercial by definition and now function...

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Mike Cataldo

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Yes.  All three machines are using it, (NFTS) on all internal drives (M.2, reg SSD, mechanicals).  The only thing I occasionally use for temporary external devices is exFAT on some larger thumb drives (256, 512, 1tb).  Currently, none of these devices have anything connected like that.  Hadn’t thought of that good to keep in mind for future reference.

Mike

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joltar

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FYIW, I also have a home build PC with Asus X299 Mark 1 mother board.  No issues.

Desktop Asus TUF X299 Mark 1, CPU: Intel Core i7-7820X Skylake-X 8-Core 3.6 GHz, RAM: 32GB, GPU: Nvidia GTX 1050 Ti 4GB. Display: Four 27" 1080p screens 2 over 2 quad.

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Tech

I love the “Edition 30, X299” been using Asus that long (almost 30 years).  Quality has slipped a bit over the years and their customer service is horrendous.  However, I still have a Sabertooth X87 (running Windows 10 Pro)that has been running faithfully since late 2010/early 2011 that runs 24/7 in my garage.  I’ve had this one running non-stop since 2019.

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Mike Cataldo wrote:

System 3 is the only one not having the issue.

Isn’t that contrary to what you said in your first post?

Mike Cataldo wrote:

It started with one machine but eventually over the past few weeks it began to happen on all 3 machines.

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That was a mistake on my part.  The third machine remains unaffected as of this morning.

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joltar, b

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Is there any software which is installed on the first two but not the third?

(Adobe Bridge?)

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joltar, Mike Cataldo

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No.  In fact machine number two has far less software than the others.  I’ve even checked to make sure all versions are current, and that all patches have been installed.  Microsoft even had me install optional upgrades and new drivers.  Fun, since yesterday alone Nvidia released two new upgrades for the GPUs (all three have different GPUs, 2 discrete and one embedded).

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Shot in the dark, and you’ve probably already done this, but have you tried temporarily disabling anti-virus\anti-malware software?

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Yes, the Microsoft people tried that as well.  I have Malwarebytes, Hitman Pro and use MS Defender on all three machines.

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joltar

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Have you tried running Task Manager just to check what might be going on when this occurs?

--Joe

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Mike Cataldo

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Yes, so have the three Microsoft people who have logged into the system.  Yesterday, they captured logs to study before the next call, tomorrow.  It doesn’t just occur.  It is now continuous on both machines.

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So what was the upshot of the MSFT return call?
Curious minds etc… 🙂

Windows - commercial by definition and now function...

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They told me, and I quote, “We are still investigating this problem and need a few more days to work with the logs we captured.”  They then sent a follow up email scheduling another meeting for Monday at 9am CST.

I suspect they will investigate until Windows 13 comes out.

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More than likely they are having other Microsoft folks look at the logs.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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joltar

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So sorry to hear of your troubles with Windows 11.

A poster above said “Eliminating multiple drives and rebuilding your search index might help.” Don’t know for you (and as your first system contains 5 large 18TB drives which I suppose you have uses for I think this will not be acceptable to you either), but for me this will be unacceptable because I NEED multiple large hard drives to store my data. Perhaps completely disabling the search indexer as suggested by the link article? Is it possible the problems were caused by a recent Windows update if as you said the problems only came up in the last few weeks?

If we have to keep reloading them this is not a production product. This is an alpha test at best.

This, exactly. Even though I am aware that reloading previously working system images is a good way of restoring functionality in case of problems (and I do this occasionally myself when necessary), if a system like Windows 11 requires us to “keep reloading”, then it is simply not production ready.

Windows 11, what can I say? I have known it to be rubbish for a while, but this? Simply unacceptable and ridiculous. Never heard of similar problems in previous versions of Windows, not even the already IMHO poor Windows 10 (regular versions). I am never been so glad my systems are “not supported” by it. I will continue to avoid Windows 11 (and its successor if it is equally bad) for as long as I can.

Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

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[Mike_Cat]

@Mike_Cat, I’ve been following this thread from the beginning.  I have six SSD drives with 21 partitions spread across them, but I also have Search disabled in Services (which disables Indexing).  Those partitions let me know where my files are located, and I have very little use for Search.

I began with XP by disabling Indexing, simply because it wasted CPU cycles doing something for which I had no use.  I’ve had 20+ partitions for decades.  In the MBR days I used an Extended partition on each of two (and later four) HDD’s in order to increase the available logical drives.

Even with Search disabled in Services, the Search function still works, albeit slowly.  Windows throws a hint that Indexing is turned off, and “Click here” to turn it on.

All of this to say that I have not experienced your issue through any of the “Modern” Windows iterations.  You might try going to Services.msc, disabling Windows Search, and see if that has an effect on your issue.  It only turns off Indexing; Search still works, slowly.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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Mike Cataldo wrote:

A few weeks ago I noticed that File Explorer had been slow to react, it often took 1-3 minutes to open a directory, or take actions (file copy/delete/format etc.)

Hi Mike_Cat:

Your system specs in post # 2556045 show all three of your computers have Win 11 v22H2 / OS build 22621.1635, which is the KB5025305 Cumulative Update Preview for Windows 11 Version 22H2 for x64-based Systems (rel. 25-Apr-2023).

Is it possible these problems started after the 25-Apr-2023 Preview build was installed? I can’t see File Explorer mentioned in the Highlights or Known Issues section of the KB5025305 release notes, but Mayank Parmar’s 09-Apr-2023 Windows Latest article This is Windows 11’s New File Explorer, Biggest Update Since Windows 8 lists several planned changes for File Explorer in Win 11.  I’m just wondering if Microsoft tried to sneak in a few backend changes to File Explorer in the KB5025305 Preview build for beta testing in anticipation of these coming changes and messed something up on two of your systems?
————-
Dell Inspiron 5584 * 64-bit Win 10 Pro v22H2 build 19045.2846 * Firefox v112.0.2 * Microsoft Defender v4.18.2304.8-1.1.20300.3 * Malwarebytes Premium v4.5.27.262-1.0.1991 * Macrium Reflect Free v8.0.7279

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That is a great idea, however MS already tried that.  Right now I’ve taken a hands off approach to these two machines.  Microsoft has made so many “experiments” on them I really don’t want to use them until this is resolved.  I have a Synology NAS and a Windows 10 machine that is stable enough to let me access my data.

Ironically, the Windows 10 machine I’m using is a 12 year old Z87 Asus Sabertooth.  According to MS the I7 processor in it wasn’t good enough to run Windows 11.  Sometimes the irony of their logic really escapes me.  Linux is looking better every day.

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wavy

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From that post by Mayank Parmar:

• Future Windows 11 versions may have a whole new File Explorer with better performance and more web integration.

Lovely, just what I always wanted–the Internet seeping into my File Explorer searches. Perhaps this will become the 597th setting that you can “simply” turn off if you don’t want to run Windows Microsoft’s way.

Also from that article:

File Explorer is getting an updated “details” pane that is more touch-friendly

Really??? So MS learned nothing from their Windows 8 fiasco and they’re still pushing a touch UI on PCs?? How long ago did Windows Phone fail? <rolleyes>

 

Keep Running Windows 7 Safely for Years to Come  
Make Windows 10 look and work like Windows 7

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Once upon a time Gates wrote his “open letter to hobbyists.”  Ah, those were simple times when he complained about stealing from him.  Now MS wants all of your data to be open to all.  How far Microsoft has come.

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Cybertooth wrote:

Really??? So MS learned nothing from their Windows 8 fiasco and they’re still pushing a touch UI on PCs??

My laptop has a touch screen. Doesn’t everyone’s? 😉(except Apple’s)

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Touch screens on my tablets and phones.
NEVER on my computers – Apple’s OR Microsoft’s. 🙂

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At this point I don’t put much past them.

I have to admit I am going to install Linux Mint (Cinnamon) on at least one of these systems now because I’m getting tired of the weekly, let’s break something new, mentality they have.  I’m sure Linux can provide me a stable machine for e-mail and word processing until MS get’s their act together.  Who knows maybe this will be the impetus I need to switch from MS to Linux and Google docs instead of paying a few hundred a year to be a beta tester for MS.  If I have to learn a new system every week why not simply go all the way?

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Cybertooth wrote:

How long ago did Windows Phone fail? <rolleyes></rolleyes>

https://www.neowin.net/news/this-windows-11-mobile-concept-imagines-a-modern-mobile-os-by-microsoft/

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Cybertooth

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Mike Cataldo wrote:

until MS get’s their act together.

MS will never be better than its current state.

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Alex5723 wrote:

MS will never be better than its current state.

Citations?

Are you presuming a vanilla Windows installation with no user modifications/interventions?

In my experience with my tweaks to Windows 11 Pro (OS Build 22621,1555) it is faster, more efficient and stable.  I’ve experienced none of the issues noted within the topics of AskWoody.

In other words, this iteration is better than the last, and I fully expect the next iteration (which will also be subjected to my surgery) to be better still.

I’m no fanboy, I slice and dice and reconstruct Windows until it suits me.  Microsoft throws a lot of fluff our way, but that doesn’t mean that there’s nothing to be done about that.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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joltar, geekdom

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That was kind of implied by the title.

Let’s face it.  My wife is the average user.  She logs in for work email, light word processing and maybe the occasional spreadsheet in Excel.

She hates, absolutely hates when her routine is broken by virus scans, continuous updates, and the other crap running in the background that bombards her with ads.  She has at this point basically given up on her home PC.

Most of my peers (late 60s), do not want to spend hours “tweaking” a system every time Microsoft wants to patch another glitch and break something else.

The reality is Microsoft doesn’t want to support PC anymore.  Touch interfaces, gesture controls, these are great on my tablet, or phone but on a PC it’s too much trash.  Try explaining to someone with a perfectly good PC that it cannot be supported going forward because it’s not secure enough to run Win 11 or that their top of the line laptop is not going to get any more patches – but it still runs all of their other software and they are at risk going forward and don’t understand why.

The PC has become disposable.  Between the GPU manufacturers selling to the highest bidder the last few years, to chip manufacturers requiring a nuclear reactor to power some of the latest iterations.  I stand by the statement that Windows 11 isn’t going to be for home users much longer.

For me this has been a bit sad.  I build a new system every few years because I like the reliability of knowing what hardware is in the box.  I use top of the line components from reasonably reliable vendors and I purchased my copies of Windows 11 Pro from Microsoft.  I’ve been working on computers since 1974 and I have two almost useless machines that Microsoft can’t make work correctly.

You mention tweaks.  My only real tweaks to this system was uninstalling One drive (which keeps coming back) and not wanting to use Edge over Chrome.  Yet, even these minor tweaks offend Microsoft.  I cannot remove Xbox software or most of the bloatware without taking hours.  Whose machine is this?  I had more control over my work computer than my home computer.

Perhaps I’m a foolish old guy who spent a few thousand dollars building a good, reliable platform and expected the experts at a software company not to break it with a file utility, or force me to reinstall the software on a regular basis when they break it with a patch.

You say this iteration is better than the past.  Maybe for some uses that is true.  But, as someone who has used Windows since version 1.03, I respectfully disagree.  The older versions were harder to setup and I hated swapping disks for an hour.  But once the machine was setup, unless I did something to break it, it worked reliably.  Now we have an entire site devoted to warning us about what the next patch will and will not do.  Does that sound like progress?  KISS is a simple principle, which Microsoft needs to learn again.  If it’s not broke, I don’t want to upgrade or patch it to break it.

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Mike Cataldo wrote:

She hates, absolutely hates when her routine is broken by virus scans, continuous updates, and the other crap running in the background that bombards her with ads.

There are Settings that can easily eliminate that behavior.  None of my machines have ever been interrupted by updates, scans, or anything else.  All updates are withheld until after “Active hours”.  My scans are scheduled via Task Scheduler to run after “Active hours”.

Mike Cataldo wrote:

Most of my peers (late 60s), do not want to spend hours “tweaking” a system every time Microsoft wants to patch another glitch and break something else.

I’m 78.  I’ve been working on making Windows work my way for more that two decades, and I have saved my methods/tweaks/hacks going forward.  It does not take hours.  If a Microsoft patch breaks something, restore a recent drive image and it will be unbroken in just a few minutes.

Mike Cataldo wrote:

You mention tweaks. My only real tweaks to this system was uninstalling One drive (which keeps coming back) and not wanting to use Edge over Chrome. Yet, even these minor tweaks offend Microsoft. I cannot remove Xbox software or most of the bloatware without taking hours. Whose machine is this? I had more control over my work computer than my home computer.

Revo Uninstaller 5.1.1 will uninstall Edge completely.  No complaints from Microsoft, other than reinstalling it in a future feature update.  It takes only a couple of minutes to uninstall it again.  Revo will also uninstall Xbox and most other bloatware/apps that Microsoft thinks are great.  I’ve pruned mine.

There are numerous .reg files that will remove the innards of Microsoft’s fluff & bloatware.  Resource Hacker allows running utilities as Trusted Installer.  Regedit run as Trusted Installer can modify the registry without interference about permissions from Windows.  I have one .reg file that takes care of 46 registry entries that interfere with the way I want my Windows 11 platform to operate.  Removing them takes less than a minute.

Mike Cataldo wrote:

Now we have an entire site devoted to warning us about what the next patch will and will not do.

And there are many other sites, as well.  But I follow my own advice.  The only updates I block are driver updates, blocked via Group Policy.

Mike Cataldo wrote:

The older versions were harder to setup and I hated swapping disks for an hour. But once the machine was setup, unless I did something to break it, it worked reliably.

On the older versions I broke them many, many, many times in order to figure out how to slice and dice and reconstruct them to make them work the way I wanted them to work, instead of the way Microsoft wanted me to use them.  Every time I broke one, I restored a recent drive image and started over, learning from my mistakes, making each iteration more reliable, efficient and stable.  And that’s the way my Windows 11 Pro is now.

 

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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No offense bbearren but you’ve kinda made my point.  The “average” home user is not going to bother to do any of the steps you’ve outlined.  Most want to turn on their computer, check email, check social media and turn it off.  They don’t want to go into regedit or install even more software to make their O/S work with other Microsoft products (word/excel).  They don’t want to have to block updates and guess which ones are important.

For years I was comfortable doing all of the things you mentioned.  I would create mirror images that could be restored if a virus slipped past or the hardware broke.  But that’s not normal user behavior.

in 2022 alone, when most people were stuck at home PC sales declined by almost 30%, when they should have increased.  The VA Hospital that I go to, now hands out Ipads rather than try to support Vets using home computers.  It is simply easier to hand them a new unit that support PCs and Windows is playing a large role in that.

Perhaps I’m wrong and the next iteration will be wonderful.  For me Windows 11 is proving a bridge too far.  My patience with their support, the bugs, and being a beta tester for poorly performing software is pretty much at an end.

Maybe I’m the exception.  I’ve worked in technology for decades.  For years I was the one recommending Windows and Intel platforms.  I just can’t do that anymore because I just can’t muster the energy to keep repairing something that shouldn’t be broken in the first place.

The final straw for me was when, after hours and days (not an exaggeration) of being on the phone and working my way up the line of “experts.”  They can’t fix the problem.  I could live with doing a complete reinstall as they suggested.  What I can’t live with is even with all the logs, even with complete access to the machines and all the software on them, the told me it could easily happen again because they can’t trace the error.  If they can’t why would I even try.

Susan is also right. Every platform has problems.  They are usually identified and over time they improve – if you wait long enough.  Well, I plopped almost a thousand dollars down two years ago for a few copies of Windows 11 pro and Microsoft 365 and had to renew the latter already.  When can I expect to turn on my machine and use them without patches, tweaks or adding new software to the old software to control its behaviors?

Funny thing is, when Windows came out and replaced DOS, I was content to use my VCR player and the local Blockbuster.  That technology wasn’t perfect either and now it doesn’t exist.  Something Microsoft might consider before Windows 12.

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What are you using for your a/v?  I don’t see any interruptions for virus scans.

Every computing platform has issues and side effects.  The last emergency update on iphones didn’t roll out smoothly like it used to.

Many of the side effects are self imposed.  Older software that isn’t written with Windows 10 in mind. Older networking protocols needed to run older NAS units.  Older printers that no longer have specific drivers and only generic ones.

Most of the time if you just hold back, Microsoft will come up with a fix with the larger issues that impact folks.  I’ve tracked issues for years and in those early days I would cross my fingers that everything would work.  Because of this site and even Microsoft who now documents issues more than they did, you are aware of the issues.

For the record, we have an entire newsletter that discusses other tech trends and issues.  My patching guidance is just one part.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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Susan

No offense intended.  I use Windows Defender, Malwarebytes and Hitman Pro on all of our machines.  With the exception of Defender the other start upon system startup.  The rule is, start the system, go get coffee and all should be good.

As for the rest.  All of my equipment is new, within the last few years.  My NAS is a new Synology DS1821+ Installed last December.  The one computer, coincidentally the first one to fail has the following software (Win 11 pro.  365 office, chrome, VLC, Logitech Unifying software (wireless keyboard/mouse).  I use Belarc Advisor on all of the machines to audit them for updates.  Like you I’ve been doing this for years (decades), which is why I’m so frustrated.  The fact that it only affects 2 of 3 almost identical machines makes it worse.  But, I’m not the only one who is having this problem.  The Microsoft website lists literally hundreds of people having this issue.  We can’t all have the same glitch with this many samples.

Like I keep saying.  The real frustration is that my older by a decade Z87 Sabertooth, which sits in my garage year round (it’s over a hundred in there today) is working fine with Windows 10 and every software package the Win 11 machines have installed.  Yet, according to Microsoft it can’t run Win 11.  But then, neither it seems, can File Explorer. lol

I love the newsletter, appreciate the effort that goes into it.  I ‘m a plus member for a reason.

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joltar, Cybertooth

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so, one final post on this topic.

Spent another two hours on the phone with Microsoft. The problem is now, “resolved.” According to the Tier # “specialist.” The problem was caused by three things on both machines.
1. Malwarebytes, was the first thing he told me.
2. Too many files on the machines across too many hard drives.
3. Too many .tmp files created by #1 and #2

The first part of his solution was to reindex all of the files on both computers. (I would like to mention that while one PC did have 6x18tb Seagate Iron Wolf drives and 4x4TB M.2 and was connected to a NAS supporting 8x20tb drives, the second PC only has a single 4tb M.2 drive. While this process was going on he ended the call and called back 90 minutes later.

The second part of his solution was to, “Delete temporary files that were generated by searching the large amount of files.”

He apparently forgot about the earlier claim about Malwarebytes being the culprit. After the files were deleted from both computers he re-ran indexing and the problem went away completely on both machines.

For what it’s worth, I did ask for him to put his solution into writing. If he does and anyone is interested I will post it.

The lesson I learned is that this is not a reliable OS. I will make mirror images of the working systems now, but I will be looking at alternatives for Windows 11 Pro, going forward.

To those who offered help and suggestions, they were welcomed and some were attempted but I left the one machine just for MS to play with until today.

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joltar, Cybertooth

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I read this as third party antivirus once again doesn’t play nice.

Susan Bradley Patch Lady/Prudent patcher

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joltar, Mike Cataldo

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Actually, I don’t think that’s the case.  I think he “read his script,” and somewhere on it the script said, “blame the anti-virus.”  After he mentioned it, he never returned to the subject and Malwarebytes, alongside of Microsoft Defender is running happily on all the other computers.

Since he never returned to that conjecture and the machine is now working fine I think it’s too early to blame anyone else’s software.

Just my opinion, but I think the problem is in their indexing routine.  Otherwise why run it twice and then everything starts working again?  To me this was the spaghetti bowl of support.  Throw everything at the problem and hope something sticks.

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Mike Cataldo wrote:

Just my opinion, but I think the problem is in their indexing routine. Otherwise why run it twice and then everything starts working again?

bbearren wrote:

I have six SSD drives with 21 partitions spread across them, but I also have Search disabled in Services (which disables Indexing).

I’ve disabled indexing since XP.  Now to disable indexing in Windows 11, Windows Search must to be disabled, which ironically, doesn’t disable Search, just slows it down.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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joltar, Mike Cataldo

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Mike Cataldo wrote:

The lesson I learned is that this is not a reliable OS. I will make mirror images of the working systems now, but I will be looking at alternatives for Windows 11 Pro, going forward.

Mike Cataldo wrote:

The second part of his solution was to, “Delete temporary files that were generated by searching the large amount of files.” He apparently forgot about the earlier claim about Malwarebytes being the culprit. After the files were deleted from both computers he re-ran indexing and the problem went away completely on both machines.

How does too many temporary files translate to this is not a reliable operating system?

Clean up your files once in a little while. Removing temporary files would assist in keeping any operating system functional.

As an example, consider trying BleachBit for system cleanup.
https://www.bleachbit.org/

On permanent hiatus {with backup and coffee}
offline▸ Win10Pro 2004.19041.572 x64 i3-3220 RAM8GB HDD Firefox83.0b3 WindowsDefender
offline▸ Acer TravelMate P215-52 RAM8GB Win11Pro 22H2.22621.1265 x64 i5-10210U SSD Firefox106.0 MicrosoftDefender
online▸ Win11Pro 22H2.22621.1992 x64 i5-9400 RAM16GB HDD Firefox116.0b3 MicrosoftDefender

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I’ll answer both questions at once Geek.

All of the temporary files were dated between 5-1-2023 and 5-8-2023 (in other words these were all files created by Microsoft while they were working on the machine over the past 7 days).  In short, they cleaned up their own mess.  Actually, they didn’t.  They left the .iso, all the logs, all the programs they installed sitting on the desktop for me to clean up,

I still believe it is unreliable because either they lied (notice they never returned to the issue of Malwarebytes and probably forgot they mentioned it), or the system can shut down over a few temporary files.  Considering the available space and memory on this machine that is a bit silly.

And, this is the pertinent part.  Why did they spend 7 days working on the systems, taking logs on the systems only to delete a few tmp files and now it’s working.  An operating system shouldn’t require a third party program to maintain it, yet, look how many “fixes,” and “tweaks” for Windows require 3rd party programs to make them work as they should.

The real important point here, which I keep saying.  Is this the program that the average home user is going to devote hours to maintain and keep running?  Or, are they going to simply say, “not worth it,” and use their phone or a tablet?

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joltar, Cybertooth, Charlie

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When partitioning drives and creating a directory structure, a consideration may be: What to index and what not to index.

I had to fine-tune Microsoft indexing to prevent an excessive performance impact. The tuneup entailed entire disk drive and directory exclusions such as temp directories. Ten partitions out of 12 were 100% excluded from indexing. In addition, the very long list of file types to include or exclude from indexing had to be edited. I can’t imagine a typical consumer figuring this out.

I know I should ditch Microsoft’s indexing and use a third party product, but I rarely require whole PC searches.

Windows 10 22H2 desktops & laptops on Dell, HP, ASUS; No servers, no domain.

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joltar, Mike Cataldo

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windbg wrote:

When partitioning drives and creating a directory structure, a consideration may be: What to index and what not to index.

With a suitable structure and naming convention for partitions, folders, subfolders and sub-subfolders, I know where my files are.  So what to index amounts to “nothing”.  Turn off indexing, no performance hit to try to fine tune.

Search still works, just slower, but a suitable structure and naming convention allows one to narrow it down to a folder, and search in one folder is pretty quick even without indexing.  As stated in another post, I’ve had indexing turned off since XP.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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NaNoNyMouse, Mike Cataldo, Just another Forum Poster, Alex5723

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I don’t index as well. I know where every app and data files are.
I use ‘Everything’ to search system files. No indexing needed.

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unbob, NaNoNyMouse, Mike Cataldo

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I disabled indexing when I installed my first SSD (way back on WinXP) and have never had any problems with how “quickly” search finds things.

SSD’s are are so much faster than HDD’s that indexing doesn’t really “speed up searches“; which was the whole reason it was created in the first place.

It’s very old technology that doesn’t really serve a useful purpose on most modern PC’s (other than “wasting” processor cycles and disc space creating lists of exactly where all the files on your discs are located) and, IMHO, Microsoft should set it to “disabled by default” for all SSD’s.

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joltar, NaNoNyMouse, Cybertooth, Mike Cataldo

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With an SSD based system here, I now find indexing to be no longer relevant. Disabled it.

Windows 10 Pro 22H2

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joltar, NaNoNyMouse, Cybertooth, Mike Cataldo

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What a great discussion to follow.  I have learned and unlearned a lot.  My thanks to everyone.

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Final Thoughts.

It has been almost a month since the first problems and the systems are working fine with no software changed, deleted or modified – other than Windows 11 Pro.  Taking the advice of many of the good folks here, Indexing was disabled and will now be checked after every “update” as part of my “scraping out the useless stuff” scan.  Bbearren, your recommendation about using Revo Uninstall was probably the most useful piece of software I’ve added.  Without Edge, Cortana, and dozens of other Microsoft “leech” programs, the systems run better than when new and, in addition to restore points, I’ve created bootable “mirror” restores; which I should have done in the first place as many people mentioned.  While I have numerous backups of data, I should have kept those current as well.

Thanks everyone.

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Mike Cataldo wrote:

Final Thoughts.

It has been almost a month since the first problems and the systems are working fine with no software changed, deleted or modified – other than Windows 11 Pro.  Taking the advice of many of the good folks here, Indexing was disabled and will now be checked after every “update” as part of my “scraping out the useless stuff” scan.  Bbearren, your recommendation about using Revo Uninstall was probably the most useful piece of software I’ve added.  Without Edge, Cortana, and dozens of other Microsoft “leech” programs, the systems run better than when new and, in addition to restore points, I’ve created bootable “mirror” restores; which I should have done in the first place as many people mentioned.  While I have numerous backups of data, I should have kept those current as well.

Thanks everyone.

Good to hear that you have resolved your problems.

So you have to use Revo Uninstaller to remove those useless Microsoft programs? The need to do this is one of the reasons why I am now using Windows 10 1809 LTSC on my main computer (but still keeping Windows 7 in a second SSD), which contains NONE of these crap programs from the start. But it is certainly nice that someone offers such useful software that Microsoft refuses to provide.

Creating disk / partition images for restore is very useful. Any debilitating problems on Windows? Restore a working image from before and all is well. It is also useful for moving a Windows system from one disk to another without a need to reinstall Windows from scratch.

As to Windows 11, my systems are “unsupported”, and I will avoid it for as long as I can.

Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

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Mike Cataldo

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Alex5723 wrote:

I don’t index as well. I know where every app and data files are.
I use ‘Everything’ to search system files. No indexing needed.

Ditto that!!

‘Everything’ is the solution for all this MS Search garbage.

I’ve been using ‘Everything’ for years and years with no problem whatsoever – and it provides instantaneous results! Absolutely awesome software!

Turn-off/disable indexing on all your drives and use ‘Everything’!!

https://www.voidtools.com/

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