A letter from SC: I am running Widows 10 Pro Version 1703, Build 15063.413. Several weeks ago I was able to set “Pause Updates” for up to 35 days. Now
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Win10 Creators Update 1703 no longer able to set “Pause Updates” to 35 days
- This topic has 84 replies, 22 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 10 months ago.
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Isn’t it clear why they would do this?
Pausing updates was a feature added in response to the many complaints about loss of control. Even with an OMG WHOLE 35 DAYS delay, how much did it really cede control back to the users?
Hardly any at all. It delayed their master plans a tiny bit, and it is pretty much ineffective at keeping your system from self-borking. But they could say they “listened to your feedback and made changes to fix the problem” – and they did.
Now of course they’ll systematically dial back even that small delay, because any delay in their master plan is unacceptable. They’ll say it’s for our protection, because think how fast ransomware could spread if they didn’t get everyone’s systems updated right away!
Microsoft wouldn’t have taken over control in the first place if it weren’t of great benefit to them. They’re surely not going to want to give even the smallest bit of it back.
Though the subject has been popular in the past, blog posts like this one will now raise little to no concern, even though the original problem of complete loss of control of one’s own computing resources is still there in all its glory. Anyone posting here will automatically be socially assigned “tin foil hat” status.
I’d suggest never forgetting that practices that were considered outrageous just a few years ago are now being done regularly, but the reality is most of the public are already quite numb to them. We’ve entered the great time of what I call “numbing down” in order for big business to change what’s considered normal by the public. It’s not good.
-Noel
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Oh, I understand WHY they would do it. Everybody who’s followed along here on AskWoody knows what’s happening.
What I’m seeking is some sort of clarification.
We know that the “defer upgrades” option is only available on Win10 Pro (and Enterprise) 1703. I wrote about it in detail, back in March.
What I want to know is if the settings have changed. Do the Group Policy settings still peg out at the same levels as before? Is there a change to “Advanced Options” dialog?
And why, for heavens sake, is SC seeing the limitation on his desktop PC, but not on his laptops?
I’m still on the road, and don’t have access to a raw-metal 1703 machine…
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As I am concerned only with desktops/laptops, I can tell you that the setting to defer upgrades does not really matter. All that matters is the policy about the configuration of Auto/Manual updates and their known variations.
There are ways around using WSUS, one good example being WUMT which gives total control over what is to be installed.
However I ran in a similar argument with Susan on patchmanagement.org a while ago, when she explained to me that the world moved on from desktops/laptops only and that there are now other devices running Windows 10 not controlled so much with Group Policy, but other means like MDM or just settings in the GUI.
So I am better off staying away from this discussion, as I have visibility and interest only in a limited segment of the market.
If it is only about desktops/laptops, you have my input.1 user thanked author for this post.
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My primary concern is desktops/laptops, just like you.
My main concern is for Pro owners, not connected to WSUS, who really don’t want to play around with Group Policy settings. (To a lesser extent, I’m also concerned about the overlap between Group Policy settings and options in the Win10 Settings app.)
Win10 Home users, as usual, are just outta luck. As explained in the article, they don’t have the Settings entries to Pause or Defer updates.
Win10 Pro owners should be able to Pause Updates for 35 days. I looked through the Windows blog and discovered that MS committed to ” pause the update process completely for three days ” on March 1, while on March 30 we were told that Creators Update would let you “pause updates for a week.” There are lots of blog posts and Answers forum posts that say the limit is 35 days, but I don’t see anything definitive from Microsoft.
I have a tweet from Martin Brinkmann that says he still has 35 days on a fully patched Win10 Pro 1703 machine.
I’m still scratching my well-scratched head.
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Here’s what my tweaked and updated Win 10 test system shows for choices… Note that I’m seeing 35 days. This was a fresh install of v1703 5 weeks ago, with the manual application of updates culminating in the latest cumulative update from the catalog as of June. I haven’t done any July updates yet. I will do that and check again.
-Noel
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I haven’t done any July updates yet. I will do that and check again.
There is nothing newer I can see in the catalog.
-Noel
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We know that the “defer upgrades” option is only available on Win10 Pro (and Enterprise) 1703. I wrote about it in detail, back in March.
So, in short, the defer upgrades is going to be useless for the vast majority of Windows users and, with the drop from 35 to 7 days, was more than likely just corporate malarkey to placate some [possibly very large] companies who were threatening to switch to the Penguin or some other OS.
Fortran, C++, R, Python, Java, Matlab, HTML, CSS, etc.... coding is fun!
A weatherman that can code1 user thanked author for this post.
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Windows 10 users still have some options. In build 15063.447, the pause all updates is indeed max 7 days. However, feature updates may be paused for a year and quality updates for 30 days. So that leaves just the security updates that can be deferred beyond 7 days.
The settings deferral mechanism seems to me to be an attempt to give the average user some small degree of temporary update control in the event that they need to put the brakes on for some reason – trust in the next update not being a valid consideration Microsoft wishes to entertain.
Power users will go into the group policy options and shut down automatic processing of updates. Users who can’t yet do this probably shouldn’t be turning off security updates in the first place. The malware environment is only going to get worse thanks to mankind’s predilection to wage war on every conceivable battlefield and then leak their tools all over creation.
Ultimately, one still has the ultimate choice. If you don’t like Volkswagens, then choose to drive a something else.
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Ultimately, one still has the ultimate choice. If you don’t like Volkswagens, then choose to drive a something else.
Unfortunately, that’s REALLY not a good analogy.
A more proper analogy would be like “Got your degree in Geology and don’t like where the job market is going? Just work instead in Journalism or Air Conditioning Repair.”
-Noel
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“Pause updates” in 1703 Settings used to go to 35 days. I shot the Advanced Options dialog in this report on a bare-metal 1703 machine.
If it’s now 7 days, what changed? And why don’t SC’s laptops report a similar change?
Does the Deferral countdown box in Group Policy “Select when Quality Updates are received” still max out at 30 days? Does the max still take effect?
The whole Group Policy – Settings circus in 1703, where Settings values don’t exactly match up to Group Policy values, was always ridiculously complicated. Now it sounds like it’s become more complex still.
Sure would be nice to formulate a precise question to Microsoft and, perchance, to get an answer.
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Power users will go into the group policy options and shut down automatic processing of updates. Users who can’t yet do this probably shouldn’t be turning off security updates in the first place.
It’s hard to defend this, but I think you’ve hit the nail right on the head.
It seems like MS is determined to take what little choice is left out of the hands of the typical user, but power users and sysadmins still have their ways to circumvent the settings being dumbed down and restricted. (Also being able to tweak things via the registry as well.)-
power users and sysadmins still have their ways to circumvent the settings being dumbed down and restricted. (Also being able to tweak things via the registry as well.)
The devil is in the details, unfortunately.
It’s taking a significant amount of time and effort to keep ahead of the ways to do this, and what the consequences are.
You may think that postponing updates until you are ready for them is regaining control, but is it? What about control over what telemetry is sent where? Or what Apps are loaded onto your computer? Or whether you can block ads?
It all takes some additional geek chops and TIME and EFFORT. Keep up with what it takes to retain control and you find yourself just working continuously to try to keep ahead of Microsoft’s bad acts. Trouble is, there are more of them than there are people managing your computer system.
Let’s not forget the reason we’re here – that we have actual things WE want to do with our computers!
-Noel
@Noel
Talk about numbing down, we are living in an age of technological paternalism where tech companies no longer seek to provide useful tools to accomplish life’s tasks more effectively. They now want to integrate products (Trojan horses) into everything which unnecessarily engage in surveillance of user actions/activities. Much of W10 architecture that we have discussed is motivated to facilitate this process. You listen to people who think Facebook is there to build a “global community” which I assume would be monitored by global philanthropist Zuckerberg for the benefit of humanity. We have come a very long way and I fear we are all frogs in a pot of water with the temperature gradually rising.
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Numbing and dumbing down is now a common intentional objective in the US — MS behavior is just a small part of it.
It works.
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The norms have been changing for a long while now and the current situation is a logical conclusion of that.
Having come here from the Soviet bloc I can tell you that you gotta fight for freedom — you won’t sustain it any other way. Unfortunately, Americans have not been doing it for quite a while and you ain’t seen nothing yet.
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The OS no longer under user control and Microsoft’s business philosophy in particular nowadays, remind me so much of Lily Tomlins’ sketches about the Telephone Company back in the 70’s…
“We don’t care”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHgUN_95UAw
“This is the Phone Company, we’re Omnipitent”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIOogEaO3Hc
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Until very recently, I used to get my Internet and TV Services from The Phone Company (AT&T). Trust me, Microsoft is not the Phone Company. Try closing out an account or stopping billing with AT&T. Then compare with trying to stop Automatic Updates in Windows 10. Windows may be more effort, but at least you can regain some control. The Phone Company on the other hand…
“Keep Calm, Your Internet Is On… and on… and on…”
-- rc primak
In the Microsoft Answers thread that Woody references, this part of the moderator’s reply caught my eye. Recall that the OP had said that his laptop and desktop are both on the same version of Windows 10, but that the laptop was still allowing a 35-day delay while the desktop was down to a 7-day delay:
However, we’d like to know if you have edited some of your settings with your Windows 10 laptop, or did it come from your workplace. A possible cause of the issue are policy settings that came with the laptop.
So, from the MS mod’s perspective, retaining the longer delay time frame is an “issue.”
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Sorry to tell you so but I told you so.
I wonder if there will be hacks to enable users to hold upgrades off. Could be a profitable market, if feasible.
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For Win10 Pro users, all you have to do is monkey around with the Group Policy settings. But I thought Creators Update had made things much simpler, by exposing the settings (more or less) in the Windows Settings app.
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MS did not choose to leave the consumer market, it was driven out by its utter incompetence and I doubt it’ll do any better in the cloud, which is where the numbing and dumbing down will help.
Microsoft boasted it had rebuilt Skype ‘from the ground up’. Instead, it should have buried it
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/07/05/skype_app_slammed_in_user_reviews/
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The devil is in the details, unfortunately. It’s taking a significant amount of time and effort to keep ahead of the ways to do this, and what the consequences are. You may think that postponing updates until you are ready for them is regaining control, but is it?
I don’t disagree with you that the idea is now a moving target; a field of Whack-a-Moles even. You could say picking and choosing updates and trying to stay in Group B is equally as annoying.
As for your question, if I may answer it with a question: how is it not “regaining control”? By and large, if I do the things I need to do, I’m keeping control of my machines, and they are not updating unless I allow them. Is there more control available, short of pulling the plug and staying offline?
What about control over what telemetry is sent where?
We’ll never have that control, not from MS, Apple, Google, Facebook, or “the next one”. It is unfortunately “the world we live in”. If you want to be connected, expect to be harvested where and whenever possible. I don’t like it, I don’t agree with it, but, “it is what it is”. Maybe I’m giving them too much of a rope, but I’m going to assume that the amount of telemetry sent in 10 is related to both the level set, and whether or not the machine participates in CEIP. (Mine don’t, and they’re set to Basic.) The consensus there has been that 10 on Basic sends no more telemetry than 7 & 8.1 did.
Or what Apps are loaded onto your computer?
So far, yes, I can control this in 10, even Home. They may have stripped it out of GP, but they are still adhering to the pertinent registry keys:
Write-Host Disabling pre-installed Windows 10 junk
REG ADD “HKCU\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\ContentDeliveryManager” /v PreInstalledAppsEnabled /t REG_DWORD /d 0 /fWrite-Host Removing pre-installed Windows 10 junk
Get-AppXPackage | where-object {$_.name –notlike “*store*”} | Remove-AppxPackageWrite-Host Preventing Windows from silently installing junk in the background
REG ADD “HKCU\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\ContentDeliveryManager” /v SilentInstalledAppsEnabled /t REG_DWORD /d 0 /fWrite-Host Preventing Windows from showing junk suggestions on the Start menu
REG ADD “HKCU\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\ContentDeliveryManager” /v SystemPaneSuggestionsEnabled /t REG_DWORD /d 0 /fOr whether you can block ads?
uBlock Origin is available for Edge, as well as Chrome and Firefox (and their derivatives).
As for the OS itself (ie Explorer), yes:
Write-Host Disabling Windows 10 Spotlight ad lock screen
REG ADD “HKCU\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\ContentDeliveryManager” /v RotatingLockScreenEnabled /t REG_DWORD /d 0 /fREG ADD “HKCU\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\ContentDeliveryManager” /v RotatingLockScreenOverlayEnabled /t REG_DWORD /d 0 /f
Write-Host Preventing Windows from showing ads on the lock screen
# Press Y to overwrite existing entries if prompted
REG ADD “HKCU\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Lock Screen\Creative” /v CreativeId /t REG_SZ /d “” /fREG ADD “HKCU\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Lock Screen\Creative” /v CreativeJson /t REG_SZ /d “” /f
REG ADD “HKCU\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Lock Screen\Creative” /v HotspotImageFolderPath /t REG_SZ /d “” /f
REG ADD “HKCU\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Lock Screen\Creative” /v ImpressionToken /t REG_SZ /d “” /f
REG ADD “HKCU\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Lock Screen\Creative” /v LockImageFlags /t REG_DWORD /d 0 /f
REG ADD “HKCU\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Lock Screen\Creative” /v PlacementId /t REG_SZ /d “” /f
REG ADD “HKCU\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Lock Screen\Creative” /v PortraitAssetPath /t REG_SZ /d “” /f
Write-Host Turning off ads in File Explorer
REG ADD “HKCU\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced” /v ShowSyncProviderNotifications /t REG_DWORD /d 0 /fIt all takes some additional geek chops and TIME and EFFORT. Keep up with what it takes to retain control and you find yourself just working continuously to try to keep ahead of Microsoft’s bad acts. Trouble is, there are more of them than there are people managing your computer system. Let’s not forget the reason we’re here – that we have actual things WE want to do with our computers! -Noel
Agreed, and again, po-tay-to and po-tah-to here… once again, you can say the same for dodging the minefield of updates and Group B on 7 and 8.1. A battle is still a battle no matter on which field it takes place.
We have 2 1/2 years of 7 updates, and (I believe) 4 1/2 years of 8.1 updates. Eventually, time will run out – and that’s IF they (MS) actually hold up their end of the bargain.
I’m becoming more willing to concede things when the computing world is changing and has changed quite a bit since 7 and 8.1 launched. I’m not saying 10 is the answer, but I don’t think holding on to 7 and 8.1 will be for much longer either.
I’m dual booting Windows and Ubuntu MATE and have been for several months now; right now, it’s 7. In another few weeks, if that long, it may be 10. I know I won’t go from 7 to 8.1 because the UI is even more segregated in 8 point anything than it is in 10 and I’d rather deal with other battles, not UI ones.
JMHO
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Correct.
The script I put together is primarily information provided by Microsoft themselves, as well as other sites like Tenforums.
And yes, it will not remove the Store app, which cannot be re-installed without doing a complete reinstall of Windows. It removes everything else that it can, but, everything that is removed can be re-downloaded through the Store. Cortana cannot be removed – she can only be disabled which turns the Search into a local computer only search.I wanted to make a script, instead of having to rely on tools like O&O Shut Up 10. The script accomplishes the same things, just by command instead of an app/GUI.
I will add an addendum that it appears that they have changed things, and a VM I had running since yesterday (which was “cleaned off”) has now re-downloaded Candy Crush Soda Saga, Minecraft: Windows 10 Edition, and March of Empires: War of Lords. Based on this, I would assume that the Content Delivery Manager tweaks are no longer being respected by MS, which is a shame.
My “complete” set of tweaks is Pastebinned here; obviously you can pick and choose as you wish. Has to be run from a PowerShell window as Administrator – everything preceeded by a # is commented out/disabled. (For instance, I no longer disable the DiagTrack service [since I believe with CEIP disabled, it doesn’t transmit much at all], or, Windows Defender.) Having now had this VM download c*** again, I guess I’ll be continuing to stick with 7 on every machine I can.
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you can say the same for dodging the minefield of updates and Group B on 7 and 8.1. A battle is still a battle no matter on which field it takes place.
As a fellow tweaker who did (and does still) participate in the fight, I’m convinced the battle is becoming harder with each new Win 10 version.
When do you EVER remember having to work so hard to keep systems up to date? To keep them under your control? Remember when, if you disabled a service or scheduled task, it stayed disabled?
I also agree that it’s not a viable long-term strategy to hold onto an older system, but the newer system has to be one that’s actually sustainable for longer, and I’m just not seeing that.
Up to now, with the Windows 10 releases we have had, COULD I have made use of them, and held to my ideals of privacy and control? Yes, I’m sure because I’ve essentially been doing all the work in a virtual machine, but there was no way to know that – or for how long it could last – ahead of time. Does that mean I should just have “jumped in with both feet” and be fighting the fight from the front line, instead of a simulation?
Maybe.
But something I can say without a shadow of a doubt because of having done the virtual ongoing development of a well-oiled Windows 10 configuration, while at the same time using well-oiled older systems for critical work:
Windows 10 on my hardware would NOT have brought me one blessed new thing I needed, nor has Windows 8.1 failed in any way that lowered my productivity. Even if I happened to like the Win 10 UI or something (which I don’t), I still couldn’t justify moving critical systems without even one real advantage to having done so.
Fully zero advantages from a new OS is unprecedented in the history of Windows releases.
Even having a serious Windows 10 setup in a VM to test products with has brought me almost no advantages… I don’t develop Apps, I develop graphics applications with OpenGL underpinnings. The parts of Win32 I use and need haven’t changed – at all. I simply haven’t had to implement any “if (Windows10) do this else do that” code. None. That’s both the good part and the bad part, depending on where you set your perspective.
-Noel
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MS is not-so-slowly turning the screws to lock down their OS to serve their bottom line. I remember when the first advertisement showed up on the internet. It was a BIG deal and really, really stirred up a major hornet’s nest! Now look at it – sheesh. Turning as many users into numb and pliant consumers seems to be the transformation they are aiming for. I’m reading a book titled When Corporations Rule the World. We are fast approaching it.
I keep my tin-foil hat well polished. 😉
Win10 Pro x64 22H2, Win10 Home 22H2, Linux Mint + a cat with 'tortitude'.
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Have you checked with Thomas Jefferson? He predicted the end of free US when corporations take over. We’re already there.
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Indeed, fp is right; it’s already here. It’s been here since 2006 when the Supreme Court ruled that corporations are people and have all the individual human rights that a walking, talking human does. I’m not talking about the ones that own the corporation. I’m talking about the corporation itself. “Walmart” is a person; “Microsoft” is a person etc and that money is “free speech” which enables a political system of legalized bribery especially with regard to elections.
Anyway, I digress, but it’s certainly a sick, sad world we live in. It won’t get better without a fight.
However I ran in a similar argument with Susan on patchmanagement.org a while ago, when she explained to me that the world moved on from desktops/laptops only and that there are now other devices running Windows 10 not controlled so much with Group Policy, but other means like MDM or just settings in the GUI.
Then the world is certainly entitled to take its “Jack of all trades, master of none” concepts with it as it continues to move on. Have a good one, world. Write if you find work.
Those of us still in desktop/laptop land don’t much care, I suppose, about the non desktop/laptop devices or the compromises made to accommodate them. I sure don’t. It’s not my fault that there are other devices running Windows 10. Someone else made that mistake, so let them bear the burden, not me or users like me who are and always have been only interested in what MS used to also be interested in, also known as “their core user base.”
So I am better off staying away from this discussion, as I have visibility and interest only in a limited segment of the market. If it is only about desktops/laptops, you have my input.
The limited segment of the market that represents about 98% of the installed base! Dance with the one that brung ‘ya, Microsoft… that’s PC people, not tablet or phone users.
Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
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Well in a moment of boredom I threw Win10 Pro ver 15063 in to a .VHDX just to find the culprit so to speak It would seem that the current host machine is on winver 15063.413 (after kb4022725) and that gets the 7 days pause updates as outlined above. (Both host and Guest identical in every respect)
On the Guest machine (.VHDX) the application of Cumm UD kb4016871 takes it to winver 15063.296 and the setting for pause updates remains at 35 days, same as the Orig. install 15063.00
that leaves in the intervening period kb4022405 June 11mb Servicing stack update.
and kb 4020102 cumm UD as the potential “smoking gun” but of course all these are now are cummulative updates your going to get it any way unless you never update beyond winver 15063.296. (May 4016871) Theres nothing about it in the page assoc. with kb4020102, well not that I can see, appart from some vague reference to GPOL at the bottom that refers to somthing different. As far as I can see nothing has changed in my GPOL settings here. https://support.microsoft.com/en-ca/help/40201021 user thanked author for this post.
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So on your machines, build 15063.296 shows 35 days, and 15063.413 shows 7 days. Nothing else changed?
What about the intermediary patch, to 15063.332?
Any guess about the Servicing Stack update KB 4022405?
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@Noel Carboni It would appear that installing from the catalogue may be it, if you installed all the updates the same way. Hmmmm would that mean the serving stack aka kb4022405 is the actuall culprit or the cumm UD kb4020102?? but as you rightly said they are all cumm UD’s.
Problem is here after install and the GPOL’s are set to “notify then install” I never have cause to visit that part/page again in the normal course of events. Dont tell me they are using “Psy-Ops” to sneak these things through? lol (the “Tin Foil Hat” fraternity will have a field day with that lol) essentially it was hidden in plain sight. I only checked after reading the article.1 user thanked author for this post.
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@woody on the installed updates I am not showing kb4020102 see inset
between ver 15063.296 (kb4016871) and ver 15063.413 (kb4022725) just leaves the ver 15063.332 which is I assume the perpetrator (kb4020102) & (kb4022405) service
Did a bit of Googling last night couldnt find any info on kb4022405 Servicing stack about 11mb in size I was going to say too small to bring about anything like a major change, but approx twice a year Win7 servicing stack forces me to re-edit authui.dll (dont worry folks purely for cosmetic reasons not critical, just to remove user picture frame from Win7 logon screen)
I should quantify last nights little passtime I installed 15063.00 to a .VHDX on top of a 15063.413 .VHD, that all lived on top of a 1607 actual partition, I believe the term is “nesting” its used quite a bit at work, but is actually really no use to the average user at home, unless of course you want to experiment as above hope this clears it up should it actually form a query to M$ Ohh as an aside, probably a useless snippet all three installations actually activate on the same machine without intervention. wierd eh? thought it was a “per seat” per installation activation process. ahh well hope this clarifies it 🙂 -
I realise that Woody and many on here are using the Pro version of W10. But the vast majority of home users will be on Windows Home where we have effectively no control over updates. Yes there are options as described here but most won’t be doing that. Please do not forget us Home users.
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And we are ever so grateful for that.
I started reading here as a basic non-techy person, trying to learn about my computer so I could do more with it. Over time I was able to help family and friends with their computers. We don’t want much, really… just an oportunity to write, compose (you don’t have many musicians chiming in here, but they do a lot on their computers and really don’t want it messed with), create, and communicate. The computer is a tool… to use the way we want in our lives.
I never went to W 10, at first waiting for the bugs to be worked out of it. It turns out it was a product I never wanted, and am happy. Other friends and family wanted a return to happiness… and I used what I learned here to return them to Win 7 or 8. I make sure the data is saved, and reinstall from a fresh iso, and update in Group B mode. One elder needs help maintaining Group B updating, but everyone else is doing fine on their own. It is so much easier to do than dealing with the disruptions they were getting with W 10. Thing is, they are happy.
I’ve been experimenting with linux distros and the array of programs that go with them to make them usuable, looking at the future where Win 7 and 8 won’t be here, but most of the people I’m around don’t want to change from what they are doing. I wouldn’t be doing this if I wasn’t disabled and curtailed from the active life I once enjoyed. I didn’t have time or interest back them. I’d be like the rest of the people I know, wanting something that is working for them, without putting in a lot of time and energy. So the issue for them becomes how to stay safe on line, while protecting what they do at home, and keeping the same thing going as long as possible.
Lots of tweaks are to make a new operating system look, feel, and act like an older system, that people are used to. People like stability. Even the teenagers, who embrace the newest, most promoted apps, don’t like their customizations run over and destroyed. More important is that they are coming to understand privacy, how information is being used or abused, and how to stop complaining when they are the ones who put it out there in the first place. There is a whole universe out there that is not about buying things… while the big OS and social media are now about getting people to buy things, more things, their things. Combine that with people in charge whose interpersonal model is not about relationship and community, but about power and control, and you end up with the internet being another place to bully, manipulate and exploit people and resources. I laud the people who are working to give people choice, and the knowledge and tools to make their choices…
Thank you, Woody, and all the MPVs…
PS… Don’t think Microsoft is going to come to their senses, but what a wide open market for a secure, private and useful operating system. Talk about free enterprise! Support the hardware and software makers that don’t tie themselves to a Windows operating system… Support GOG (good old games), and others that don’t require you to be subject to data mining and advertising… Support Raspberry Pi in distributing resources, knowledge and skills world wide with as low cost as possible… Support the Electronic Freedom Foundation… and support Net Neutrality on July 12th!
Oh, and don’t forget to support Woody with a little donation here… he’s helping you, so help him!
Non-techy Win 10 Pro and Linux Mint experimenter
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I had an exchange with the people who brought back OS/2, which was superior to Windows. I used it before I was forced into WinNT by IBM incompetence–the same one that is s**wing Win10–a monopolist failing to compete.
I told them they have a golden opportunity to make a killing — OS/2 is so similar to WinXP/7 that most users will jump on it if only it ran Windows applications. Sadly, it won’t and without that it will go nowhere.
The concept of competition has disappeared from the American lexicon. They all talk about it, but no longer know how to do it and don’t need to. Whenever they see competition they buy it or merge with it. And there is no longer a govt that defends against monopoly and oligopoly. Witness all the behemoth constantly being created.
US founders are turning in their graves.
Edited for content
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When do you EVER remember having to work so hard to keep systems up to date? To keep them under your control?
Oh, never, absolutely never.
Like I mentioned in another topic, I miss the XP days, when you could patch basically on day zero, and any patch, other than WU supplied drivers, didn’t cause havoc, didn’t break things, and did only what they said it did – and nothing extra, secret, or malicious. I miss those days. I’ll always look fondly back to the Win2k/XP days.And I wholeheartedly agree; given the cons, I’ve found no pros or benefits to running 10. DX12, which would probably be the only noticeable perk for me, has yielded absolutely nothing because very few games support it, and the ones that do seem to run better in DX11 mode anyway.
3 users thanked author for this post.
Windows 10 on my hardware would NOT have brought me one blessed new thing I needed, nor has Windows 8.1 failed in any way that lowered my productivity. Even if I happened to like the Win 10 UI or something (which I don’t), I still couldn’t justify moving critical systems without even one real advantage to having done so.
EXACTLY what I’ve kept saying. So why keep updating and playing the MS game? Why keep working so hard for no gain whatsoever?
I simply don’t buy the security argument. Most fixes usually come post-hoc anyway–the hackers are miles ahead of MS.
I find that disabling WU–at least for now, when it’s still possible–and taking frequent image backups is infinitely more productive than dedicating myself to protection from MS malware and useless c..p for not benefit whatsoever. I have fixed on 1511 .679 — it is close enough to Win7 and sufficiently free of MS creative nonsense. I run all the sware I was running on Win7 and I have yet to come across exclusive Win10 soft ware that I have any need for. Heck, I still use Office 2000 which is several fold more useful than the bloated useless monsters they sell these days.
1 user thanked author for this post.
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So why keep updating and playing the MS game? Why keep working so hard for no gain whatsoever?
The thought is that I can’t KNOW that there is no gain unless I look for it, and looking requires something akin to actually using Win 10. There are certainly no easy choices based on published specs. It’s almost a Catch-22. Thank the Intel gods for virtualization.
I skipped Windows 8.0 entirely, for many of the same reasons. When 8.1 came out I found that it didn’t really significantly improve on my Win 7 setup, but there were actually a few things I liked when I ran my tweaked virtual machine and actually used it, so I bought a Win 8.1 Pro DVD and fresh-installed it on my hardware.
There WAS one immediate, if small, advantage to putting in Win 8.1 for me: That it was a full, fresh install on then new hardware made me re-evaluate my choices in application software and tweaks, and while I didn’t change many of them I actually DID upgrade to the latest version of a couple of things and find a few new ways to re-tweak the then new OS to improve my setup a little.
Fast forward to now – here we are, another 4 years later… I have learned more and have kept up with my Win 8.1 setup better than I had with Win 7 before it. I have a better security setup, for example. I have a desktop theme I like even better than when I started. I have kept up with application updates more carefully, including major version upgrades. I actually feel, for one of the first times in my long career, that I am no longer being held back by my computing environment. It just works.
So…
Would installing an entirely new OS today yield an even better, more refined setup for me, just because of going through an entire new system setup from scratch?
Putting all emotion aside, and really looking objectively, I honestly can’t see how. I actually could see how back in 2013 with the choice to move up to Win 8.1. That’s a fundamental difference. THE fundamental difference that matters.
This judgment might be different if I were building new hardware coincident with the upgrade. I’m imagining I will crave new hardware in about 2 to 3 years, and so until then I’ll keep up with what’s necessary to adopt Windows 10.
-Noel
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I discovered the same advantages that you have described over the past year as I replaced my previous Win 7 Pro desktop setup with a clean install of Win 10 Pro.
I think that I now have a better workflow, refined set of applications, better security setup, and have wrangled 99% of Win 10 annoyances into oblivion.
For me Windows 10 is a darn good OS. Fast and steady as a rock in my current PC.
Updates are under my complete control (except for having to take the rollups when I decide to update, all or none). So far, by waiting for the all clear, and taking regular image backups, I have peace of mind in this regard. But so far, have not needed to restore.
1 user thanked author for this post.
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Hey Noel, that was me that replied as Anonymous #123819, before I realized I wasn’t signed in.
I am running Windows 10 Pro 1607 (14393.1358) fully patched to June 2017.
I am still running the Intel HD graphics 2500 (Ivy Bridge) with two monitors, without issue. But I have noticed that Intel provides these drivers with “as is” disclaimer, and recommends upgrading to hardware that fully supports Windows 10.
The latest motherboard BIOS available for my board is dated 6/25/2014, so it is a fairly “mature” chipset and BIOS. Will run this until it quits, before I upgrade it though. 🙂
The Intel drivers in use are 10.18.10.4425, dated 4/4/2016, downloaded from Intel website.
So at least for the time being I shouldn’t need a PCIe GPU. However, I tested a cheapo nVidia GT 710 card that worked fine. No advantage over integrated as far as I could tell, so I’m staying with Intel for now.
Windows 10 Pro 22H2
1 user thanked author for this post.
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I will add that I did have one stubborn problem for months after I installed Windows 10.
TL/DR: it turned out to be an older Netgear wifi USB driver that I was using, which caused my system to randomly freeze up several times a week.
Not every day, but just often enough to be a royal pain. No blue screen, just a complete hang, requiring a power off/reset. You can tell it’s dead when the caps lock key no longer works on the keyboard…
After much troubleshooting, fnally updated the Netgear WNA3100 to the latest software version 2.2.0.4 (supports Win 10) and all my problems disappeared! Was previously using version 2.2.0.2 (supports Win 8.1). Both were 64-bit, so whoodathunkit?
Along the way I had tested and swapped memory, GPU, disabled audio drivers, security software, and finally network adapters. Yup, it was the last thing I swapped that worked. Ran all clean with an alternate wifi adapter, so I put the Netgear back on with the latest drivers, and it behaved fine this time. No crashes since! 🙂
Windows 10 Pro 22H2
1 user thanked author for this post.
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On my Windows 10 Pro, I have set Group Policy Editor policy “Configure Automatic Updates” to “Disabled”.
In the notes below it says “If the status for this policy is set to Disabled, any updates that are available on Windows Update must be downloaded and installed manually. To do this, search for Windows Update using Start.”
With this policy setting in effect, I no longer have any options to pause or defer anything. And nothing ever shows up until I perform the following step.
I have to go to Windows Settings > Updates & Security > click on “Check for updates” manually.
This is on 1607, so I wonder if it stays the same with 1703. I like doing it this way because it allows me to check with wushowhide first, before I open the chute! 🙂
Windows 10 Pro 22H2
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On my Windows 10 Pro, I have set Group Policy Editor policy “Configure Automatic Updates” to “Disabled”.
Yes, that works in general, though I believe there is still the possibility of a forced / super high priority update depending on some trigger from Microsoft unless you actually ensure the Windows Update service is and remains disabled. I don’t know what the criteria are for them to consider an update so important to be worthy of that kind of push, nor when or even whether they would do so. But I’m convinced the possibility is there.
With the Windows Update service running we really can’t say what it will do. Settings you choose no longer are of supreme importance to Microsoft, because “they know better than you do what’s good for you”.
Note also that there are some scheduled tasks that don’t get disabled by that policy setting.
What’s worse, I’ve personally seen the Windows Update service started even when it has been overtly disabled. It’s becoming a brave new world of “who has control now?”
-Noel
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Windows Update service here is set to Manual (Trigger Start). The service boots by default in the “Stopped” status.
Since disabling automatic updates via policy, I no longer see any options for delaying or deferring anything, anywhere.
So in order to see updates, I must click on “Check for Updates” manually. Then Windows Update service switches to “Running” status, and the updates check executes normally. I assume if I had disabled the service, this manual check would fail, as it requires the service to run.
But I have another stopgap in place, so if any updates are identified, I get another prompt because I have my connection setup as metered, so I have to click again to actually download and install anything.
So between the policy editor, wushowhide, and metered connection, I think I have a belt and two sets of suspenders for CYA here! 🙂
So far I have never seen anything get pushed out that overrides this manual check process. Therefore my assumption at this point is that with automatic updates disabled, it is an indefinite deferral, until I otherwise manually check.
Windows 10 Pro 22H2
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Will do, if ever I see anything come down the chute uninvited!
Fyi, the main reason for my post was an attempt to shed some light on the “Pause Updates” question in Windows 10.
There does appear to be various ways to configure this stuff, that can affect the options that you see available. I wonder how much this will change when I upgrade to 1703? One thing I am certain of is that will not happen until it is “CBB”! 🙂
Windows 10 Pro 22H2
1 user thanked author for this post.
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My guess is that only computers which were getting Insider Previews see the 7 day maximum for pausing updates, as it was first noticed in 15048 on March 3rd (but not documented by Microsoft):
In Build 15048, which was released this past Friday, this option is still there but has been tweaked to reduce the number of days updates can be paused on a Windows 10 Professional system from 35 to 7 days.
Microsoft’s Update and Restart Modifications in Creators Update Hit the Mark for End Users1 user thanked author for this post.
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Heh… it’s interesting reading how other people here are reacting to 10, as I can’t help but compare myself to the others. Like Noel, I am not convinced that 10 will never have any merit, but I’m also highly skeptical that it will (essentially, I have assumed it won’t, given Microsoft’s insistence on making sure it’s not, but I am willing to be proven wrong someday), and much further from considering 10 at the present time than Noel. I’m still in the “I’d rather stop using Windows completely than use 10” mode, and I still consider 7 to be a good choice if the hardware supports it.
I migrated to 8.1 (just a few months ago) mainly ’cause I’d already done all the work of making it usable, a project I’d undertaken out of curiosity and for fun (hadn’t yet purchased it yet though… I ran it unactivated until I was convinced I was going to like it), and once I had, the advantages of 8 (in particular the 6 year life span) slightly outweighed those of 7.
I do miss 7 at times (like with the networking stuff I mentioned in another thread yesterday). It was more polished and complete, whereas 8.1 still does dumb things sometimes, like use a Metro-styled dialog to ask me if I want to keep using the program I already selected to open a file type. I’d rather not be asked that at all; if I haven’t told you, Windows, that I want to change it, it’s because I don’t want to change it, and installing something new that is capable of opening said file doesn’t change that. But if it must ask, it should be in a Win32 native dialog when I am in the desktop mode (which is always). I truly loathe anything “app” on a real PC!
I hardly ever see that dialog, though, so it’s not enough to outweigh the better filename collision dialog during copy, the better task manager, the faster boot, and of course the longer life of 8.1. But if it wasn’t for the extra three years of security patch support, neither would that stuff be enough to pull me away from 7.
As for new hardware… if I can’t put 8.1 on it, it’s a no-go. Fortunately, there are workarounds for Microsoft’s embargo on newer hardware, as we’ve discussed here at some length, but with the slow progression of hardware improvements, I should be set for quite a while. My main PC’s motherboard reached “abandonware” status in 2013 in terms of driver/fimware updates, but it’s fast enough that I don’t envision really seeing much difference in a newer platform.
Amusingly, my single-threaded Passmark score is a dead match for the one listed for the Intel Core i9-7900X at a turbo frequency of 4.5 GHz… which is pretty good for a platform that first hit the market six years ago. Sure, it’s overclocked, but conservatively so, and I’d bet on it having far better temps than the i9 on air too.
Naturally, running an embarrassingly parallel multicore benchmark on an i9 is going to leave my quad core in the dust, but for the tasks I do, it wouldn’t really benefit me to have tons more cores. I also know it’s just one synthetic benchmark, and others show a much larger improvement over what I have even single-threaded… it’s just kind of a “wow, look at that” kind of thing.
Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, Kubuntu 24.04
Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, Kubuntu 24.04 (and Win 11)2 users thanked author for this post.
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8.1 still does dumb things sometimes, like use a Metro-styled dialog to ask me if I want to keep using the program I already selected to open a file type.
My recommendation: Have a good walk through the various settings afforded by WinAero Tweaker. There are a LOT of nice settings and I believe there’s a panel for thwarting the “feature” you described above.
I guarantee you that you’ll find a few other things you’ll be glad you can change.
-Noel
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That’s what I like best about Windows 10. It’s not obviously a UWP based platform. Sure, a few apps and dialogue panels are UWP, but they run in windows just like the Win32 stuff does. It all coexists side-by-side in a pleasant way. And power users should realize that MS will never be able to kill off Win32 for the desktop.
I had tried out Win 8.1 that came pre-installed on a laptop for almost a year, but I got tired of the UI constantly getting in my way. So that became my first test bed for Win 10. 🙂
Ubuntu, with its default Unity UI, made the same bad impression on me as Win 8.1 had. I tried to use that, but in the end I ended up ditching that desktop UI that for the more straightforward Ubuntu Mate desktop, and eventually migrated my Linux to Mint with Mate and Cinnamon desktops. I guess Mark Shuttleworth (founded Ubuntu project and Canonical) has abandoned plans for a Ubuntu phone as well …
http://www.techradar.com/news/canonicals-dream-for-an-ubuntu-phone-is-dead
Back to the future (of desktops)!
Windows 10 Pro 22H2
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Ideally one should not need tools for such basic and obvious purposes — a well designed OS should minimize such need.
Absolutely right, but we weren’t talking about a well-designed OS. We were talking about Windows.
That’s what I like best about Windows 10. It’s not obviously a UWP based platform. Sure, a few apps and dialogue panels are UWP, but they run in windows just like the Win32 stuff does.
More than a few dialogs. Not only does it have the “Which app [sic]” dialog I mentioned as in Windows 8.1, but every dialog that falls under the Control Panel is set to be (or has been) replaced with UWP versions. I’ve come pretty close to banishing all Metro stuff in Windows 8.1, as the Control Panel is still able to to 99% of what it was able to under Windows 7, and MMC snapins can do the rest, so the settings app can be blocked and ignored.
The remaining functionality of Control Panel is a lot less than that in 10, and getting worse with every new build, as more and more options are removed from Control Panel and placed exclusively in Settings. It’s great if you’re happy with Windows 10’s setup, but I personally don’t want apps or UWP to coexist nicely or to run in a window… I want them gone. \
I don’t have a Windows phone or tablet, or even a touch-screen PC, so there’s no use whatsoever for any of this dumbed-down, ugly, inappropriate “design language” for me. I exclusively use a real mouse, keyboard, and non-touch monitor, as I have from Windows 3.0 until the present time, and I expect to have the UI tailored to that usage paradigm (one that also includes nearly the entire Windows user base) just as much as it has been from the beginning of that time through Windows 7.
If MS feels like accommodating those platforms I don’t use or care about in Windows 10, I don’t have any problem with that as long as it doesn’t encroach upon my desktop experience. Ultimately, that would have to mean including two UIs for everything. The widgets to build dialogs or windows of each type are already included within Windows, and the code to actually describe each window and the controls that would have to be duplicated within each program is trivially tiny.
It wouldn’t seem so “gee whiz” cool then, though, as including two complete UIs for two different platforms and then calling it one OS seems kind of like a cheat. It wouldn’t be following the “responsive design” web design trend that MS apparently thinks it’s doing with an entire OS, but would instead be doing the equivalent of user-agent sniffing and serving up a predefined desktop or a predefined mobile version, which isn’t considered best practice on the web. The simple observation that we’re not actually talking about the web here seems to be lost on them, as does the one that there’s nothing responsive about their UWP UI. It’s the same mobile stuff, only on a much bigger screen.
Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, Kubuntu 24.04
Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, Kubuntu 24.04 (and Win 11)1 user thanked author for this post.
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When MS went for UWP, it made a huge strategic mistake that became obvious when they had to drop the phones. The notion that you would run the phones like you run a PC is an illusion — it sounds attractive, but phones are not PCs and people won’t use them exactly the same. It is that decision that produced a UI with split personality that causes all sorts of problems.
Instead, MS should have focused on certain similarity, but smooth communication between mobile and PC, with an appropriate UI for each. IMO Windows Mobile is much superior to Android and iOS.
2 users thanked author for this post.
What’s worse, I’ve personally seen the Windows Update service started even when it has been overtly disabled.
I can confirm that.
1 user thanked author for this post.
That last paragraph is so right. Microsoft is making the same mistake the early Java folks did thinking the code once, run anywhere would work and everybody would run Java apps through the web browser. What matters is compatibility. Use the same code for engine, code two UIs that are best for their intended use and not a compromise for both platform. There is no value for the end user to have this technical magic of responsive design for desktop and mobile. Those are too different platforms and the fact that years after this introduction in Windows 8 it is still not producing convincing results says something.
I think that it appears Apple got it right when they decided to keep macOS and iOS separate.
Windows 10 Pro 22H2
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Time to upgrade to Pro! The group policy editor gives a lot more control over updates!
Windows 10 Pro 22H2
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