Attitudes regarding Windows 8

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I oft wonder if the naysayers, the naïve, the neophytes, the nasty fear-mongers, the purveyors of myths, the suckers for myths… will any hear or be able to hear, let themselves hear, all the good (things) in or about Windows8 that many people mention w/ great enthusiasm. Do they or will they hear all the positive comments made praising particular aspects & then more accolades from additional, other people lauding, even, more & different impressive Features, functions or underlying technologies. Can some people come to understand Win8 & have it, also for them, be fun, easy & sensible to use?

Being guarded not to rant or repeat (too much)…

There have been heaps of attempts to prognosticate how things will unfold for Windows8 following Oct. 26th. Adoption discussions saying how that will go. We don’t really know, folks! Que sera, sera. However, the crux of the matter is attitude. That, in a word, nutshells it. New or the same, APPs or not, start buttons & menus gone or not old or new, none of that matters more than attitude, it transcends everything. Willingness, interest, openness and not being an unknowing, innocent, lemming… being the sort to listen, learn & not go by hype & hearsay.

Many things contribute to a poor attitude. Many (other, better) things can, also, provoke a good attitude. Things are easier to discover, absorb & appreciate w/out being self-centric, wearing blinders, being gullible, stubborn or arrogant.

That said, I, just, hope people will hear (& think about) the virtues of Windows8 that people are so keen to state w/ excitement. Maybe it will cause them ponder that the good attitude, indeed, has merit.

Cheers,
Drew

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Attitude?

If people try Windows 8 and like it, then that’s fine.
If people try Windows 8 and don’t like it, that’s also fine.
Some people will be forced into Windows 8 if they buy new PCs or laptops – that’s not fine.
If people have been put off Windows 8, or encouraged to use it, by commentators of greater or lesser provenance, that’s life!

When all is said and done. Windows 8 is just a transitory operating system (like all the others).
As with buses, “there will be another along in a minute.”
No need to get worked up about it.

BATcher

Plethora means a lot to me.

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I guess I can see both sides of this.

Yes there are some that will not try Win 8 because of what they have read about it. That’s there right to do so. People that make a decision based on other’s opinions without taking it for a test drive are not getting the whole picture, but that’s their choice. People that take it for a short test drive, then give up also have the right to do so. Those individuals will loose out on what I believe is a darn fine OS, but it is their choice.

On the other hand, I’m not certain if those buying new PC’s will get a choice on which OS they will get, and that’s not right either, especially with the changes they will have to learn. I do not believe this learning curve is very steep, but I know where to look for answers. Many do not. I would bet that many individuals do not even know anything about Win 8, have probably never even heard of Win 8 and they will be in for a shock. But then again we have been shocked many times over the years with this ever changing Windows.

This debate has been discussed ad nauseam in many different articles and threads. Those that just simply listen to others to make their decisions are missing out, but those forced to use this new OS are also missing out.

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No one will be forced to accept Windows 8 on a new laptop or other Windows 7 or Vista capable device for at least two years.

Windows 8 has Windows 7 or Vista downgrade privileges built in. All you need to supply is a valid license and a copy for the Windows 7 or Windows Vista you want to downgrade to. For Windows 8 Pro, these are Windows 7 Pro or Vista Business only. For Windows 8 Standard, these are the Home Premium editions.

Further Windows 8 licensing information is found here.

This reduces the level of risk in trying out Windows 8.

See BruceR’s corrections below, (Post #7) as this further reduces the risks of trying Windows 8 Pro.

-- rc primak

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Ah, but therein lies the problem. Many of those who buy Win 8 PC’s may not realize there is a Win 7 downgrade path. And many others may have spent their wads on the PC and cannot afford the license to Win 7 that allows the downgrade.

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Ah, but therein lies the problem. Many of those who buy Win 8 PC’s may not realize there is a Win 7 downgrade path. And many others may have spent their wads on the PC and cannot afford the license to Win 7 that allows the downgrade.

O Dilemma! 😉

-- rc primak

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Windows 8 has Windows 7 or Vista downgrade privileges built in. All you need to supply is a valid license and a copy for the Windows 7 or Windows Vista you want to downgrade to.

No Windows 7 license is needed to downgrade. That’s the whole point of a downgrade option. If a Windows 7 license was needed, you’d just be choosing to install a different OS.

For Windows 8 Pro, these are Windows 7 Pro or Vista Business only. For Windows 8 Standard, these are the Home Premium editions.

Further Windows 8 licensing information is found here.

There’s no downgrade option for Windows 8 standard, only for Pro (which is the same as it was for Windows 7). It actually says that at the link you provided.

And many others may have spent their wads on the PC and cannot afford the license to Win 7 that allows the downgrade.

A downgrade doesn’t require any additional license.

Bruce

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Sorry, I do not actually know much about this Win 7 download path and was unaware that a Win 7 license is not a requirement.

I guess my whole point was that many people buying new PC’s may get Win 8, and may not know anything about it or the downgrade capabilities. That is the other side of the coin that I can see.

I also think that individuals who do not try Win 8 and just take someone else’s word on it will be short changed.

I am willing to admit that Win 8 will shock many, especially those that have not heard of it before starting their PC’s the first time. Since the title of the thread is attitude, people’s attitude will have much to do with how Win 8 fairs in the marketplace. I can see both side of the discussion, and have added to this discussion many times. I just am getting to the point that these discussions are seeming very repetitive.

I believe that resellers that do not take the time to educate their customers are truly doing an injustice to those customers, and unfortunately this will happen many times. I believe we will be inundated with questions shortly after the release, more so in the Win 8 Forums than here. We will see one question after the other about how to use this OS. I for one will be pointing to my tutorial that is a sticky on how to take the scary out of Win 8 as a good starting point for these people.

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I always wait till everybody else has tried an OS before I try it. I let everyone else do Microsoft’s beta testing.

I then look at what the computer commentators say about it. If they rave about it, I switch. If they complain, I avoid it.

For example, I avoided Vista for that reason, but I immediately jumped to Windows 7 because all of the IT people raved about it.

Same thing with XP, W2K, Windows 95 SE.

Everyone, let me know how Windows 8 goes for you, so I’ll know whether or not to adopt it.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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Jim,

If you read through the various threads in this Forum, you will see what everyone thinks about Win 8. There are some that really like Win 8 (I am in this group) some that do not like Win 8 (This group is also pretty obvious) and many in the middle, either leaning toward or leaning away from Win 8. We have discussed the many features we either like or dislike in the various threads. We have referenced many articles for or against Win 8. At this point in time, with 10 days to go, you should have plenty of time to re-read the various threads.

For me, when Win 8 Pro is released I will be purchasing 2 licenses and replacing our Win 7 OS’s with Win 8.

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Given the relative ease and lack of additional expense to downgrade, the risk of buying a new device with Windows 8 Pro pre-installed would seem to be minimal.

For those upgrading Windows 7 or earlier to Windows 8, the risks would seem to be the same or even less.

So it isn’t unreasonable to give Windows 8 a try, and if it doesn’t suit you, downgrade. Microsoft won’t stop you.

I’m still a fence-sitter. I’ll dual-boot Win 8 Pro with Win 7 Home Premium (the version which came with the laptop) until I make a definite decision. There are things I like better in Windows 7, and there are things I like better in Windows 8. I definitely use Windows 8 more for networking and file transfers than Windows 7, but productivity applications work just fine in Windows 7, and there is a real Start Menu, among other conveniences for desktop applications.

We’ll see how I feel in a year or so, after Windows 7 SP2 and Windows 8 SP1 have settled in.

-- rc primak

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Has anyone (microsoft too) ever wondered what the cost is to businesses world wide every time they change an system (windows or office). Something that staff were using quite competently suddenly becomes unfamiliar. Its ok for the home users & power users but the majority of employees arent that capable. Its more lost productivity as they try to come to terms with the new system. As a small business owner I have to many other things to do without having to stop & learn the quirks of new systems. Office 2003 still works & does all the things I need of it. My win7 looks like winxp in classic mode. My old 12 year old car even still gets me from point A to point B. Change for change sake is annoying. I think Microsoft forgets that time is money.

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No one says you have to change.

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No one says you have to change.

… because there is such a thing as “end of extended support” for any and all Microsoft software. Then the previous poster WILL have to change and the gap that has to be bridged will be even wider.

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To customers, relatives, friends who hold on to their 5-7 year old XP computers, I often admonish with my own favorite saying:

If you wait too long, technology will bite you in the rear!

Rich

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Rich,

You make a good point. And there are 3 things relative to XP that tie in w/ that. (1) Lack of support, (2) security issues…it’s more susceptible to hackers, malware & infections… if for no other reason, it’s been around for 15 yrs & has a big footprint so gets lots of attention from the sick minded who do such stuff AND (3) there is, now, heaps of good stuff that will not run on it; it’s old enough that stuff just isn’t written for it anymore and its kernel is so different that it is hard to build things for say, it & Windows8… even contemporary browsers will not run on it, the latest Messenger, many things.

So, yes, you are absolutely correct. For the last 3 yrs when I’ve had a client w/ a messed up XP machine we’ve used it as a golden opportunity to move to Windows7 & get the heck off the old XP

It was an excellent OS. So was that horse that sadly, finally was put out to pasture.

Cheers,
Drew

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Hello,
I have been using Windows since before Windows. i.e. dos
I loaded win 8 in a virtual machine on my Mac and
1. yes it is very different from others. Will have a learning curve.
2. Designed for the death of the desktop because it is a tablet OS.
3. I did find a way to run Win 8 looking like Win 7 as sort of emulation.
4. Removed and use Win 7 on my mac when I Must be 100% Windows compatible i.e. Company software and exams.
5. To each their own. I believe if people who buy a new PC will have info in documentation explaining the downgrade. At one point 2 years ago i purchased a HP desktop for a business and had the FREE option of Win 7 or Win Vista or Win XP build in upon first startup.

Each their own but i do believe I will stay with Win 7 as long as possible and hope someone comes out with a mac version of the software i need most.

Just thinking out loud.

Thomas

Oh in case I lost anyone, I an going MAC but again thats my decision, I have a 2012 Mac Book Air running IOS X 10.8.2 Lion
and a Windows 7 Desktop and 2 windows 7 laptops since my wife converted to iPad2.

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Good people: I am a geezer. I have welcomed every new Windows version since 3.1 with open arms (except Millenium–it still ticks me off that I actually paid money for that monstrosity.) I liked Windows 95, really liked XP and love Windows 7. I have tried Windows 8 and really persevered with it. I just don’t like it. I really do not like it. But, that said, I don’t think that there is something wrong with those people that do. If you like Windows 8, more power to you. What I don’t like, and I get this impression from some of the good people who are actively involved in this forum, is that there is something wrong with me because I don’t like it. There is nothing wrong with me. I gave it a fair shot. Will I buy it and try it in its full blown form? I may and I may not. Purportedly, there are many features of Windows 8 I might like. I just can’t stand the Metro interface. If there was a simple way–and I repeat simple–method of retaining my Windows 7 look and feel I would be more prone to buy it. But, please, those of you who are guilty of this attitude, if you like Windows 8, fine; but don’t treat those of us who don’t like it like dunderheads. Last, I thank all of you who participate so fully in this forum for your excellent help–you have saved my butt numerous times.

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@elgercee, If you like Win 7 then by all means keep it. There will be support for Win 7 to about 2020 or so. It is a fine OS. I also started on Win 3.1 with floppy drives. Actually in a business environment I started earlier than this with OS on dual 5.25 inch floppies. And I have used all editions since then including the dreaded ME and somewhat less dreaded Vista.

When I first turned Win 8 DP on I said “This is garbage. Why would I ever switch to this?” Then I installed Win 8 CP, RP and now Win 8 Ent. Eval. There are very simple ways to emulate Win 7 with Win 8. We have discussed these methods in complete detail elsewhere. No sense in going over those again. After I loaded Win 8 Ent. Eval. on my wife’s PC, I spent perhaps 1/2 hour applying the customizations I show in Win 8: Take the scary out. Her comments, “This is just like Windows 7 except it seems faster.” This was the first time she looked at Win 8.

A simple way: Install Classic Shell or any of the numerous Start Orb replacements and allow them to bypass the Modern UI. Your Win 8 will now look surprisingly like your Win 7. Look at the other simple customizations I show. Like I said, perhaps 1/2 hour!

@eikelein, You indeed do not have to change. There is a thread here somewhere about using Win XP forever. If you change, you gain added security and features, it’s that simple. You state there is the ”end of extended support” for all MS products. Is this any different than every piece of S/W ever developed, including Android and iOS? No-one supports older S/W for ever. XP is still supported, I believe SP3 will end in 2014. That will be almost 15 years. How long would you like support to last on obsolete S/W? As already stated, extended support for Win 7 is somewhere in the range of 2020.

And for all, I have never treated anyone that does not like Win 8 as a “dunderhead”. I still support many family members with Vista and Win 7 (They have all moved beyond XP) and I do not consider them “dunderheads”. Win 8 is a radical change from Win 7. It works very well on our 2 conventional (non-touch) laptops. It has the added advantage that allows it’s use on tablets and smartphones with touch capabilities (we both use Android smartphones).

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. . .
@eikelein, You indeed do not have to change. There is a thread here somewhere about using Win XP forever. If you change, you gain added security and features, it’s that simple. You state there is the ”end of extended support” for all MS products. Is this any different than every piece of S/W ever developed, including Android and iOS? No-one supports older S/W for ever. XP is still supported, I believe SP3 will end in 2014. That will be almost 15 years. How long would you like support to last on obsolete S/W? As already stated, extended support for Win 7 is somewhere in the range of 2020.

@Medico, I think I might even apologize. I did not make it abundantly clear that in the second half of my reply (post #14) to your post #13 I was actually addressing rannoch from #12 and not you; please forgive an old man. And Btw, I participate in the thread about XP forever; interesting comments there.

@all others: I run Win8 RTM on my little laptop that I have along at my customer’s to have an actually working computer at hand if needed. It works like a charm.

Just yesterday evening I held my monthly open door “Computer Talk” (free for everyone) at our local library. As apart of that I publicly showed off Win8; the reactions were lukewarm to mixed at best. I have Start8 on and usually go directly to the desktop; old habits are hard to kill. I use only Win8 on this machine because of the early adopted somewhat size limited SSD drive.

Come November I will update all our regularly used 3 machines to Win8. I even will try to run it on an old Dell GX270, 3Ghz 32-bit Pentium, 2GB, Nvidia FX-5200 video card and an equally old 80BG ATA drive. I’ll do the latter just to see if and how it works and if the old hardware is still supported; the machine has run Win7 so I’m hopeful. If it goes well I may think about a new SSD drive and an USB v3 low profile card for the box; that could be a blast…

But hey, I am off topic already. Sorry.

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My own experience with Windows 8 has been very similar to Medico. It kinda grows on some of us, but it never really seems to fit quite right.

I do use Metro and the Legacy Desktop. I find most Control Panel items with Windows-X and All Apps with Windows-Q. I pinned the entire Desktop folder to the Taskbar on the Legacy Desktop, and everything pops up as a jump-list with flyouts of other lists. everything is still there, even with the browser open to nearly full desktop size. It isn’t the old Start Menu, but a lot of stuff I use all the time is at my fingertips. And Sound and direct shutdown options are there on the Charms Bar flyout (under Settings, or the Gear), which I happen to like just fine. Even some of the Metro Apps are starting to grow on me, like news and weather updates.

But am I giving up on Windows 7? Heck no! I will continue to dual-boot Windows 7 with Windows 8 for as long as I want to do so. I still like running many of my desktop applications in Windows 7, and I like the Aero Glass Effects. System Font type faces are to me more clear on my laptop in Windows 7 than in Windows 8. And I have all my familiar customized features waiting for me every time I return to Windows 7.

In time, Windows 8 will supplant Windows 7 in my world, but I am not in any hurry to totally convert. In fact, I still run my Windows XP laptop for a few applications which do not seem to like Aero Glass, and don’t have Windows 8 versions yet.

Businesses cannot be expected to upgrade to Windows 8 during the time it will be the highest version of Windows, as many have just retrained employees to use Windows 7. So I do not think most businesses should upgrade. Wait and see what Windows 9 brings for business. Windows 7 support, both consumer and business, is not going away anytime soon. So we all have plenty of time to catch our breath before springing something radically new on ourselves or employees once again.

I think Windows 8 is not meant for a business overhaul — only for consumers, and to compete in the Tablet marketplace. In this perspective, while far from perfect, Windows 8 has much promise. But no one is being forced to use it, and downgrading to Windows 7 if you get a computer with Windows 8 preinstalled is really pretty easy — as long as you stick with the Pro versions.

I may choose to add Windows 8 to my Microsoft arsenal, but others may feel perfectly fine sticking with Windows 7. Or switching to Mac or iPad if that seems more user-friendly. What I like seeing is diversity in personal and small business computing — I think that’s how innovation will continue to be driven for some time to come. To each our own, and we are better off for it.

-- rc primak

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My family of 3 has four PCs, I have had 8 Beta on one for about six months. I acknowledge its new features, but they are not important to me, and some of what it takes away from me is painful.

What hasn’t been acknowledged in this thread is that while 7 may be supported by MS for a long time, third party applications will come along, either new or rewritten, and peripherals (printers for example) that require 8 long before 7 support officially ends. That is what has always forced my Win upgrades (I’ve been along for the ride since DOS). For that reason I wish Win upgrades were less frequent.

There has always been a “good” reason for the new Win. 8’s cause is the tablet. There will be something else for 9. And MS is no worse about this than Apple. But if I could have an ideal world we would only just now be getting to 7 and 8 would be a decade away. The personal cost of OS/interface change is huge if you are not in the industry (I used to be but am not any more, and it gives you a very different perspective). I guess this is “attitude”. Saying “use it if you like it, don’t if you don’t” or “just downgrade to 7” isn’t as complete an answer as it may sound at first blush. BTW, don’t count on being able to downgrade your new 8 machine to 7 for very long, if the experience of the last change is repeated. MS wouldn’t permit OEMs to offer that option past a certain point in time, and I recall it was within about two years of the release of 7.

It’s funny in that regard that the business problem is acknowledged (they will be slow to move to 8 if ever) but the plight of the low tech consumer is not. I have a widening circle of friends who just don’t use their computers any more (don’t replace them when they die, usually) because they have learned they can live without email and browsing and the hassle that comes with new OSs, plus constantly changing security threats and types of necessary responses they must acquire, update, and become expert in using.

If someone would market a firmware OS, cheap PC with no dynamic ram or drives (except USB ports and SD slots), with all essential dynamic storage in a free cloud and all apps browser based, for that part of the world that just wants to email and browse/order things online, and maybe upload photos, they would sell lots of machines. Netbooks could have evolved there if they hadn’t fixated on a small footprint and produced keyboards no one could type on. Ubiquitous broadband is required, but we aren’t far from it. I hear rumbles of such a machine out of the UK, currently backordered for months.

Most people don’t want technology to change them. They want it to fit in with who they are, and they are not keen students of the relentless march of OS and interface. They have other things that interest them. Let them get used to something and then keep it going.

Let’s remember progress isn’t unlumpy — there will someday be another ME and another Vista that has to be replaced because it was poorly done. Caution and stability and getting things right for sure are not bad things. That’s my attitude, formed by long experience.

So what is wrong with the close of the previous comment, “What I like seeing is diversity in personal and small business computing — I think that’s how innovation will continue to be driven for some time to come. To each our own, and we are better off for it.”

It sounds reasonable and tolerant and wise. And it is all those things. Choice is good and innovation is too. But when choice doesn’t include sticking with what already works for you, then our choices are incomplete in a pretty fundamental way.

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I have a widening circle of friends who just don’t use their computers any more (don’t replace them when they die, usually) because they have learned they can live without email and browsing and the hassle that comes with new OSs, plus constantly changing security threats and types of necessary responses they must acquire, update, and become expert in using.

That’s very interesting, and it correlates with the increasing dissillusion with the social networking systems such as Facebook.

I wonder if some people who find conventional computers beyond their understanding have turned to tablets in the hope that they are easier to use – and if so, whether that proved to be the case or not.

Apologies for drifting off topic.

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Bob,

I think what you have written is fair, reasonable & well expressed. I have read through most all of this thread.

1. There are some achieved design goals in 8 that focus very much on Enterprise concerns; it is definitely not for ‘consumers’ alone or primarily. The reports & feedback from business testers & early adopters has been enthusiastic. Especially the part about being able to easily design APPs for their specific purposes that are helpful to & for them in & w/ the specific work they do. As well there are other good for business things not in 7.
2. The whole ‘downgrade’ thing assumes the is something inherently & overall bad about 8. Admittedly it has differences but, it is a technically very good OS.
3. The idea being touted that it is a tablet/phone system, not designed for conventional computers AND that it is part of a nefarious effort to ignore & wipeout such machines is false. The design purpose was to have an OS that would fly on a variety of devices & have a consistent ‘look & feel’ AND the fact of the matter is, it actually can work quite nicely, even, on a NON-TOUCH computer, used on the desktop screen (w/out using Start screen & Tiles & w/out Classic Shell) and, even, if certain or any APPs are, also, used.

People may get mad @ me for saying this but, I firmly believe those who struggle w/ 8, find it ‘ugly’ or ‘weird’, don’t see or understand how it can, actually, be used so the experience, @ least, approaches being pleasant.

As we’ve said so often, instead of bashing it, stay w/ a prior OS, there is no obligation to use 8 (now) or take tips & methods from others or @ the very least, dual-boot. Yep, it’s different from the ‘familiar’ but, technically solid & some features are cool.

Cheers,
Drew

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For those who are happy with Windows 7 or even XP. Have you ever heard of, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” So it’s your call. Go to Windows 8 while it’s still young with bugs, wait awhile for the bugs to be exterminated, or stick with what you’ve got and be happy. Why give yourself headaches when you don’t have to. Sure that new car looks shiney and new, but let’s see what consumers say about it after it’s proven itself on the road first.

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1st let me quickly say there are too many assumptions being made, IMHO…

1. That people are expected, if not obliged to leave what they have & go to Windows8 immediately on October 26th … they are not; although some may.
2. That something has to be ‘broken’ before moving to something else or something better… it doesn’t.
3. That Windows8 is full of bugs… it is not. 1, Microsoft did not just throw it together & spit out last wk. 2, countless Beta Testers, such as myself and Businesses & IT Depts. have been working on this OS for The Win8 Build Team… analyzing, dissecting, running this & that on it & so on and reporting to The Team w/ feedback & critiques… what works, what doesn’t, bugs, breaks, things that are liked or disliked or that should be changed, added or removed. Primarily this is to make sure it’s bug free before release.

Going back to #2, for a moment. For example, I have a perfectly good Windows7. I am not going to throw it aside but, that is only because I need to retain it for client support, in the same sense that I have Vista & XP as VMs. However, I will still, would, still, move to Windows8 simply because it is better than any Windows OS before it. And w/ the extreme bargain price offered ’til end of Jan. 2013 ($40)… Why wait ’til Spring, do it now. (some of you may be old enough to remember that 1, lol)

Cheers,
Drew

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A philosophical note on change…
(But first get yourself a real drink :cheers: and chill out)

We are all creatures of habit whose brains are hardwired this way. [fact] But we are also capable of making other choices. [fact]
Just as easily as one can be addicted to heroin or alcohol, one can also be addicted to ones own bad attitudes and emotional states. [fact]

The only inevitability outside ourselves is change, especially when it comes to technology, but that inevitability does not
necessarily translate into changes in ones own way of thinking/being.
One has to work at it to affect meaningful change and in many instances that’s hard to do, especially the older one gets, the more “ingrained” things become.

Some people get old and wise, while others give up trying to learn and just get old.
If you give up on making attempts to get out of your own little comfort zone by never realizing new experiences,
then your as good as having one foot in your own grave.

The next time your confronted with a new peice of technology or a totally new concept, take a deep breath, relax, and try to look upon it
as a challenge to overcome rather than a burden to avoid. You may find yourself a little wiser.
If anything you may be able to stave off atrophy a little while longer by keeping your brain actively engaged.

To each his/her own. Change or be passed over, you can watch the world go bye from your place of comfort if it so pleases you.

[joke]If your demented or mentally ill, we’ll give you a pass[joke]

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Thank you, Clint, for so eloquently helping me in trying to address & express (articulate) good mental approaches to life’s challenges and technological evolution.

Very well said, my friend.

Cheers,
Drew

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Eike,

Wouldn’t surprise me a bit, if it runs on the old Dell.

There is nothing wrong w/ going directly to Desktop… many of us do… just an eye-blink from Start to Desktop. For people accustom to prior Windows, makes more sense than throwing those Tiles @ them.

&, BTW, allow me to introduce you to Ted. But, you can call him ‘Medico’ if you really want to

Cheers,
Drew

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Eike,

No offense taken at all. At 60 I’m feeling like an auld phart much of the time these days. I do like Win 8, but I also have been using Classic Shell with my OS. I recently uninstalled Classic Shell and I am thinking of trying some of the others over the next few days before the official release.

My belief is that for the masses, these add-ons will indeed be needed. See my somewhat long rant in post #33 of this thread. We have to get people past the initial shock that is the Win 8 Modern UI so they can appreciate the many things that make Win 8 better IMO.

I believe the customizations that make Win 8 easy to use are very simple, if people only know where to look ti find out how to make these simple changes. Most of the masses, unfortunately, do not even know of the existence of our forums let alone use them.

I suspect any PC you have actually used with Win 7 will indeed work with Win 8, perhaps better.

Anyway to those who are still undecided, take your time. There is indeed no rush to move to Win 8. If you wish to save a few bucks, grab a key from MS before the end of January for $40 or wait and get an Upgrade DVD from a reseller for $70. Wait until you feel comfortable with what you are reading about Win 8. Set up a spare HD or spare PC with Win 8, or set up a dual boot to try Win 8 for a while before jumping in feet first. Unfortunately time is running out to try the Win 8 RP release.

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@Drew1903
Thanks for the introduction, nice touch.

@Ted
What a pleasure to meet you; my name you already looked up (in the profile?). I think I’ll PM or email you.

@all: I will report about my experience with the old Dell GX-270 but likely in a dedicated thread.

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And what about the weirdos finding it easy to use w/ no customization, fellow 60 yr old? Don’t we count, @ all, for anything? Darn 🙁

Somebody better be laughing or @ least, a wee smile…

Eike do you have cows… isn’t WI the dairy state? Never mind, I’m getting tired = silly.

Cheers,
Drew

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And what about the weirdos finding it easy to use w/ no customization, fellow 60 yr old? Don’t we count, @ all, for anything? Darn 🙁

Somebody better be laughing or @ least, a wee smile…

Eike do you have cows… isn’t WI the dairy state? Never mind, I’m getting tired = silly.

Cheers,
Drew

Umm.. Look at my Profile data. I am 54 years old. No youngster. And I can adapt to Metro if I have to. Don’t like it, but can use it. Just another crazy interface, if you ask me.

-- rc primak

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. . . fellow 60 yr old? Don’t we count, @ all, for anything? Darn 🙁
. . .
Eike do you have cows… isn’t WI the dairy state? Never mind, I’m getting tired = silly.

Hey, I beat you by 13, how’s about that?
I use my age as an excuse to say the things I’d like to say, like to pretty young ladies; they ALWAYS accept it graciously. Go figure. :huh:

Sorry, we have no cows but many of my customers do.

Be talking…

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My point was that most of the users who buy these new PC’s will not have knowledge of or do not frequent forums to learn how to use Win 8. These are the people that will be needing help and most likely not know how to get it. These people will feel a little lost when they turn on their PC’s.

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My point was that most of the users who buy these new PC’s will not have knowledge of or do not frequent forums to learn how to use Win 8. These are the people that will be needing help and most likely not know how to get it. These people will feel a little lost when they turn on their PC’s.

Let them buy System Builder and dual-boot while learning Win 8’s quirks. Transition achieved.

-- rc primak

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Use of the old start button & menu had dropped off drastically

On Windows 7 ONLY, due to task bar pinning of applications. (Not Vista, XP or earlier – the other 40%.)

To recap, removed due to lack of use & in keeping w/ technical reasons; not to coerce you to buy something.

What technical reasons?

Did he mention one does not need a Touch screen?

I thought that was the main point of the article:
Budiu [user experience specialist] believes the transition to Windows 8 will be most difficult for PC users, because Microsoft’s design choices favor touch screens rather than mice and keyboards. Alex Wukovich, a Londoner who tried Windows 8 on a friend’s laptop, agrees. “On a desktop, it just felt really weird,” he said. “It feels like it’s a tablet operating system that Microsoft managed to twist and shoehorn onto a desktop.”

Let them buy System Builder and dual-boot while learning Win 8’s quirks. Transition achieved.

Let them eat cake?

That makes no sense in relation to the buyers of new PCs you were commenting about.

Bruce

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^^^ Most of these people also lack the confidence and desire to explore and experiment, in many cases fearing that they will “mess it up”.

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I must say that I was one of the detracters and had nothing to do with Win8 until a week or so ago. I set up my spare machine with win8 just to take a look and see what all the hype was about.
I did not and still do not like the metro look and feel, but with ‘start8’ and ‘skip metro suite’ loaded and set up the way I like my desktop to be, I am beginning to see the advantages, and like the speed as well as the added security of Win8.
At $40.00 to upgrade to Win8 pro who can complain, with a good image backup and a fresh install, if you don’t like it, $40.00 is not a big loss and it is easy to go back to Win7 which, as we all know is a very stable and reliable O/S.
My attitude is beginning to change but I still feel that Ms could have done a lot to please everyone with a two version deal, one for the tablet people and one for us traditionalists/profesionals/workers.

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with ‘start8’ and ‘skip metro suite’ loaded and set up the way I like my desktop to be, I am beginning to see the advantages

Could you go into a little more detail regarding those advantages please?

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Win 8 works faster for me on both our PC’s. Whenever I go back to Win 7 I am constantly saying “Come on, do something!” Win 8 and IE 10 are more secure than previous versions of Windows. It’s memory usage is superior to Win 7 in that less Ram seems to be used by the Windows kernel. The graphics seem crisper than Win 7. I like the new picture password feature.

I would encourage you to read the many threads we have posted for many other features on Win 8.

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Had to get some sleep, was 2.30 when I wrote that
Pretty much what ‘Super Moderator’ had to say plus the file transfer in 8 is quite a bit faster than 7 plus I have never been a big fan of IE, I use Firefox instead but IE10 is a big improvement on its predecessors and may just get me back.

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Win 8 works faster for me on both our PC’s.

Might that be, at least to some extent, because there are very few patches as yet so the registry is still very small?

It might be interesting to compare unpatched WinXP, Win7 and Win8.

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I believe it’s because of the documented low memory usage, and other factors. I cannot say the registry has anything to do with it, although many here have stated cleaning the registry has no affect on speed. I do not know for sure. I clean my registry more because there is always a chance in the future that leftovers in the registry may cause other yet unknown problems. Why take the chance.

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Am I right in thinking that cleaning the registry would only remove entries for programs that no longer exist and not the Windows patch entries? That would be consistent with it having little or no effect on speed.

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That is correct although you do have to be careful with these cleanings. I still have read nothing that would indicate the Win 8 OS is quicker due to a smaller registry.

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I still have read nothing that would indicate the Win 8 OS is quicker due to a smaller registry.

Fair enough.

Win XP and Win7 computers get very noticeably slower with time, even if no new programs are installed and the hard disk(s) still have vast amounts of free space and there’s no significant increase in the number of user data files. Something must be causing that and I guessed it was the registry getting bigger due to more patches being installed. Looks like that guess is wrong, so I wonder what does cause it?

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Fair enough.

Win XP and Win7 computers get very noticeably slower with time, even if no new programs are installed and the hard disk(s) still have vast amounts of free space and there’s no significant increase in the number of user data files. Something must be causing that and I guessed it was the registry getting bigger due to more patches being installed. Looks like that guess is wrong, so I wonder what does cause it?

In 64-bit editions, that isn’t a Registry issue. Win SxS and SysWoW64 grow very rapidly and this correlates with the Win 7 slowdowns in the experiences of myself and a few friends. This is because 32-bit programs cannot directly access many System Kernel functions, which then have to be duplicated outside of the Kernel. Waste of resources, but more secure.

Some of this duplication of resources is due to adding, updating and removing x86 programs, but not all.

This growth can be documented over a couple of months using tools such as Disk Space Fan. And the correlation is not linear, but it is real.

-- rc primak

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That sounds like a maintenance issue. You can check in the Maintenance forum for some threads on that. It is off topic here however.

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One of the major reasons XP got slower over time is insufficient memory. XP systems seemed to run fine on 512 megs of memory when it first came out. Now it needs a minimum of 1 gbyte. Windows 7 seems to need 3 gigs now. I’ve never seen registry cleaning impact performance unless its related to Malware.

The other reason Windows XP and Windows 7 get slower over time is more crap gets loaded at startup as more programs are installed. Use MSConfig, Autoruns, or Whats in Startup to see what startup items can be disabled.

Jerry

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The other reason Windows XP and Windows 7 get slower over time is more crap gets loaded at startup as more programs are installed. Use MSConfig, Autoruns, or Whats in Startup to see what startup items can be disabled.
Jerry

Brother you are spot on!

For non geeks I would rather recommend CCleaner for startup cleanup, especially the portable versions from here.

For techie geeks IMHO Autoruns is by far best because it really shows every driver started up, occasionally even orphaned drivers still being present after uninstalls from ancient past! My darlings in this respect are older, say pre 2009 Norton, McAfee and TrendMicro AV programs.

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Allow me to clarify something for you…

Yes, IF, a system has heaps of junk in it (bundled) from the onset & increasing w/ time there’s a negative impact; same w/ the existence of any malware, as well, Defrag a bit, too, but, now recent, modern Windows OSs defrag by default wkly or so… Ergo, you do regular maintenance, run Internet Options (Delete/Delete), do Super-Disc Clean-up (Sage), run CCleaner regularly and disable things from running @ Start-up. The best thing lay-people can do w/ the registry is pretend it doesn’t exist. In regard to these concerns, please refer to the following (applies to all Windows including 8 although, I should update it sometime soon, a bit, maybe or parts of it):
http://windowssecrets.com/forums/showthread//144918-Tips-amp-Best-Practices-for-referance-amp-good-performance

But, that said…

W/out going into a deep & detailed technical lingo/jargon spiel this is why there is a marked & noticeable difference in the ability & performance of Windows8… and it is not because of a small reg or lack of programs & software (as yet installed)… It is because of how Windows8 treats & handles CPU usage, how its boot works, how it uses & handles RAM, how it relates to the CGU… basically, due to the differences in its base kernel & does it does w/ hardware & resources makes its overall performance better, striking, impressive. as the saying goes, “This is not your daddy’s OS”. And it goes WAY BEYOND cosmetics!!

This is what I have been on about since day 1. People rambling on about Start screen & Tiles & UIs & writing the thing off as difficult (which it is not) & no visible big deal over previous Windows, IMO, is so sadly misguided & causing folks to miss out on being able to garner, see or accept the superiority of this new OS.

now, to the person who (now) likes Windows8 but, thinks they need to add “Start8′ to ‘avoid’ its Start screen & the Tiles & get directly to Desktop… (& forgive me for repeating) Everybody, by now, knows I live on Desktop & don’t use Start or Tiles BUT, you do not need to add any 3rd Party stuff to accomplish that.

Upon boot-up, when the Start screen appears do the following & you will go straight to Desktop

1. Click the Desktop Tile
OR
2. Put the Desktop Tile @ the top-left position & from then on when the Start screen appears just hit ENTER

Ergo, you are only @ Start for a fraction of a second, long enough for 1 click or to hit 1 key (ENTER) & you did need to/don’t need to add anything!

AND, BTW, you can access all applications, Win8 APPs or otherwise from Desktop, w/out ever leaving it & w/out using Start screen Tiles (if you care not to) AND w/out flipping back n forth from Desktop to Start. And, again, w/out adding anything. You can if one wants, but, it’s just not necessary. Suit yourselves, of course. OR use the KISS principle. 🙂

Cheers,
Drew

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Drew, what is the point of your thread?

You are obviously a W8 evangelist who thinks the sun shines out of it.
Thats fine, but why expound your glowing fanaticism on a new thread here?
Isn’t there an “I LOVE W8!” website you can post this stuff to?

Are you paid to write this non-stop adoring, gushing praise, or are you just blinded by new technology?

You consistently avoid difficult questions or opinions about W8, suggesting doubters are either lacking in something, or missing the point, or don’t understand it, and never fail to effuse hugely about how incredible it is at every opportunity, without providing any real examples or proofs.

Also, the mass of grammatical and spelling typo’s suggest you posted after a long ‘recreational’ evening.
Please don’t hit ‘send’ until the morning, when things look a little different.

There are/will be several types of W8 users :-
1. Somebody just bought their first PC, they don’t know anything else, and it is all a unique experience.
– They will either love it or hate it, it’s up to them.

2. Experienced users who have used MS product for a while.
– They might love it or hate it, depending on what they like and what they don’t, compared to how they have used PC’s for the last 10+ years. Maybe they have found MS OS’s lacking for years and are now thinking “At last, it’s all here!”, or maybe they have been very happy with 98se, XP, and W7, and are thinking “Where have all the things I use and fiddle with every day gone, and – more importantly – WHY have they gone?”

3. Evangelists
– Who can’t see anyone else’s opinions as valid. The fact that W8 exists is enough.

Personally I have never had anyone ever reply to the simple question “Why remove the start menu?”, and I know sure as eggs is eggs you’re not going to give me an unbiased answer!
But would love to hear from someone who can.
And also why do drivers for older devices not work any more – surely it is possible to make a ‘virtual layer’ to accommodate older drivers in a modern OS?

MS have a consistent OS track record for ‘domestic’ OS’s :-
(I don’t count W2000 as a Domestic OS, it was always touted as a Tech’s OS, and never marketed as ‘domestic’ at all)

DOS – good (basic, but pretty solid. DR-DOS was possibly better, but had no marketing)
W98 – bad (the first MS attempt at a WYSIWYG interface, not a solid OS)
W98se – good (they sorted out the problems and it worked well)
W-ME – bad (a frankenstein of W98 interface and solid W2000 tech)
W-XP – good (very good, still used by millions (billions?) 15 years later)
Vista – bad (a rushed OS, put out just to boost sales. Pointless and forgettable)
W7 – good (a proper solid OS, not a dumb ‘rush release’)
W8 – bad (Rushed out to capitalise on its Touch Interface and sell a new OS, just as W7 was getting to be solid. They seem to have empirically decided “This is what people need!” without actually assessing users or the market at all. The pricing incentives tell you all you need to know about how MS feel it will sell.

Do you see the pattern there? I hope so.

MS have found themselves in a rut between appealing to the Desktop Tech’s and the Smartphone users. W8 is a halfway cludge (see W-ME above) of a smartphone Touch Interface foisted onto a desktop OS – or a Desktop OS operated through a Smartphone interface. Either way it could have been done so much better, if they had simply taken W7 and applied an ‘Optional’ Touch Interface over the top. That is basically the only difference (Any core improvements could have simply been a W7 update). Perfect, everybody would’ve been happy. But they didn’t. They ditched the Techie side (alienating millions of PC professionals and large companies – and most importantly big revenues), and made it a Smartphone interface with an underlying but hidden Tech core (when most Smartphone users are already very happy with their iOS or Android devices). W8 is trying to catch up with Android and iOS – fat chance there! And what is the MS App store like? – how many years will it take to have the range and variety of iOS and Android apps? They have already lost the battle, as these days throwing a ton of money at something (Nokia) doesn’t guarantee success with a ‘connected’ audience who can independently evaluate things en masse and make ‘crowd decisions’ of their own. Which is why iOS and Android are well established, after a fraction of the time MS has been making OS’s. MS have simply missed the boat, lost the plot.

I wish MS would restore the bits of Windows people have liked for 20+ years, keep the new bits they hope people will like in the future, and make drivers for older (5 years?) devices work, instead of saying “It’s a new OS, now you have to go and buy a new printer and scanner and……etc…..

Also if they make a PC-OS and a Phone-OS (and W-RT), they have to be fully data-compatible. No question of “Oh, you can edit that on your PC but not the Phone” or vice-versa. Total data-compliance is a must. But just looking at the current MS-Office mess it looks doubtful (Desktop, Live, 365, all with problems – why so many disparate varieties?).

And another thing – how come Apple made the transition from a 32-bit single-tasking OS to a 64-bit multi-tasking OS so simple for users (with just one major jump at OS-10 then carry on as normal), yet after XP-64, Vista-64, W7-64 and W8-64, MS-Office is still only truly reliable in its 32-bit format? And IE-8 wasn’t reliably usable in it’s 64-bit version either, even after making 64-bit OS’s for 10 years.

Come on MS, stop being stupid and act like a real and proper HIGH-TECH company!

I’ve been using MS-OS’s since 1990, and I really don’t want to have to move to the Apple ‘Walled Prison/Fascist’ way of things, but if MS keep at this ‘scatter-gun’ approach to programming, I may have to.

Is Mr Ballmer really such a massive idiot as he appears?
He should stay in the back office and let a real human do the PR. He’s not doing MS any favours at all.

Oh, and before anyone says “Linux!”, I stopped using complex command-lines years ago (mostly programming POV scenes), and no way I’m going back!
If you can’t do it with a Graphical Interface, you’re stuck in the Stone-Age.
But I still have hopes for Linux.

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Personally I have never had anyone ever reply to the simple question “Why remove the start menu?”

I put forward a theory in this thread:
http://windowssecrets.com/forums/showthread//149837-A-Start-Button-Theory-Advertising-Revenue

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This article in USA Today is interesting, mainly because the newspaper’s wide circulation means it will be influential. The article has some technical inaccuracies due to the author’s ignorance, but then it could be said that ignorance is due to the poor design of the product:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/personal/2012/10/20/early-look-at-windows-8-baffles-consumers/1646077/

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MS have a consistent OS track record for ‘domestic’ OS’s :-

DOS – good (basic, but pretty solid. DR-DOS was possibly better, but had no marketing)
W98 – bad (the first MS attempt at a WYSIWYG interface, not a solid OS)
W98se – good (they sorted out the problems and it worked well)
W-ME – bad (a frankenstein of W98 interface and solid W2000 tech)
W-XP – good (very good, still used by millions (billions?) 15 years later)
Vista – bad (a rushed OS, put out just to boost sales. Pointless and forgettable)
W7 – good (a proper solid OS, not a dumb ‘rush release’)
W8 – bad (Rushed out to capitalise on its Touch Interface and sell a new OS, just as W7 was getting to be solid. They seem to have empirically decided “This is what people need!” without actually assessing users or the market at all. The pricing incentives tell you all you need to know about how MS feel it will sell.

Do you see the pattern there? I hope so.

An excellent summary which pretty much mirrors my own views, but I’m curious..

How come you left out 3.11 and W95? 🙂

Cheers..

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Don’t know why you try to say Win8 was “rushed out”. It is released on exactly the 3 yr cycle Windows OS are supposed to be. Nie isn’t rushed out when it gets released 3 yrs from now. If you look into it, you may discover a lot of market research was done & a lot of reading what hardware & technology was doing & where things were headed… both for people & business in a changing world. It may be more what seems to be wanted, according to trends & demands, than any self-fulfilling prophecy regarding need.

This OS is, certainly, different. Different might, but, doesn’t necessarily equate to bad. When things step away from the accepted, accustomed ‘norm’ people will react by labeling them weird, bad or scary… the unfamiliar freaks some people. All the polarized conversation will likely ebb after a few months.

Cheers,
Drew

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. . . but I threw something else out to the Lounge that has nothing to do with our attitudes so I started a new thread.

Reading the previous sentence I realize how much of my own attitudes actually made me start that other thread.

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Personally I have never had anyone ever reply to the simple question “Why remove the start menu?”, and I know sure as eggs is eggs you’re not going to give me an unbiased answer!
But would love to hear from someone who can.

I’ve touched on this a few times. While the Start menu is useful, its not the end all/be all. Apple got rid of their start type menu long ago. I don’t use it at home, but I do at work. I prefer a dock at home with a clean, icon free desktop. When MS introduced Win95 with its newfangled “modern” interface and Start Menu, people were shocked. People didn’t “get it”. It was such a paradigm shift that MS had to concede a bit and add a flashing “Start Here” arrow pointing to the Start Button. And everyone was trying add ons that mimicked the Program Groups of Windows 3.x if they weren’t actually using the hidden program groups that were still buried underneath. And yet now, we’ve gotten so used to the Start Menu that we can’t conceive of anything different. And we’re angry about it. MS won’t give people back the Start Menu, but what needs to happen, and very likely will happen is that, when SP1 or SP2 comes out, they’ll find a better way to present the Start Screen, which BTW, is just a more graphical version of the Start Menu. The Start Screen, like the Win95 Start Menu is the beginning of a shift in computing.

And also why do drivers for older devices not work any more – surely it is possible to make a ‘virtual layer’ to accommodate older drivers in a modern OS?

For the same reason that parts for your 20 year old car become hard to find if they are available at all. Its economy of scale. Should a company employ a team of programers to write driver code and maintain that “virtual layer” when the number of users of that old hardware diminishes month by month? The ROI just isn’t there. Its just not good business to do so.

MS have a consistent OS track record for ‘domestic’ OS’s :-
(I don’t count W2000 as a Domestic OS, it was always touted as a Tech’s OS, and never marketed as ‘domestic’ at all)

I think you are misunderstanding the markets involved here. W2K was not a “tech’s OS”. It was the next version of NT 4.1 Workstation which was designed from the ground up for buisness use. Far more secure than Win3.x and Win95 (which were consumer OSes, not “domestic”), and far easier to network in a corporate environment. The consumer and business versions of Windows were merged together because it made good sense to do so. MS foresaw home networking and broadband before a lot of other tech companies. Bringing some of those enterprise features to the home has been a big benefit to us.

DOS – good (basic, but pretty solid. DR-DOS was possibly better, but had no marketing)
W98 – bad (the first MS attempt at a WYSIWYG interface, not a solid OS)
W98se – good (they sorted out the problems and it worked well)
W-ME – bad (a frankenstein of W98 interface and solid W2000 tech)
W-XP – good (very good, still used by millions (billions?) 15 years later)
Vista – bad (a rushed OS, put out just to boost sales. Pointless and forgettable)
W7 – good (a proper solid OS, not a dumb ‘rush release’)
W8 – bad (Rushed out to capitalise on its Touch Interface and sell a new OS, just as W7 was getting to be solid. They seem to have empirically decided “This is what people need!” without actually assessing users or the market at all. The pricing incentives tell you all you need to know about how MS feel it will sell.

Do you see the pattern there? I hope so.

I can’t say I agree with your assessments. And you are missing Windows 2.0 which was their first true GUI interface (Windows 1.x was just a clunky and fancy DOS shell). Windows ME wasn’t as nearly bad as people think. I had a WinME machine and never had a single problem with it. So did some friends and family. No problems. The press ran with every negative thing they could find. The press has a strong influence on the uninformed consumer. XP was actually very unstable until SP1 came out. SP2 made it rock solid. Funny how we forget some of this stuff and only remember the “good old days”. Remember how great that XYZ car was back in 1955, the one without the airbags, with drum brakes that couldn’t stop a bicycle at 80 MPH, no seat belts and that wonderful vinyl upholstery? Cool old machines to look at, but not so great for day to day use when you compare nuts and bolts.

They ditched the Techie side (alienating millions of PC professionals and large companies – and most importantly big revenues),

As a System Admin, I’m tickled by the idea of deploying Win8 and locking the Start Screen down to only the apps a user needs. Simple and effective.

W8 is trying to catch up with Android and iOS – fat chance there! And what is the MS App store like? – how many years will it take to have the range and variety of iOS and Android apps? They have already lost the battle, as these days throwing a ton of money at something (Nokia) doesn’t guarantee success with a ‘connected’ audience who can independently evaluate things en masse and make ‘crowd decisions’ of their own. Which is why iOS and Android are well established, after a fraction of the time MS has been making OS’s. MS have simply missed the boat, lost the plot.

Here’s something we mostly agree on. While I think MS will catch up, they have a lot of catching up to do. Where they anticipated the market for broadband and home networking, they completely blew it on the new wave of computing. The reason I believe they will catch up is two fold. They already have the business market, hands down. Built in cash cow. Companies may not upgrade to Windows 8 on the desktop, but they will upgrade to 2012 sever, 2013 Exchange, etc. Then take look at the history of the Xbox. A joke when it first came out. MS lost boatloads of cash on it. But where is it now? A highly competitive and desirable gaming box. I believe that by SP2 or Windows 9, MS will have its day, perhaps not as dominate in the consumer space as they once were, but certainly not a failure.

I wish MS would restore the bits of Windows people have liked for 20+ years, keep the new bits they hope people will like in the future, and make drivers for older (5 years?) devices work, instead of saying “It’s a new OS, now you have to go and buy a new printer and scanner and……etc…..

Hmm… Do you still drive a car with a clutch and a choke? Why not? Computing is no different. The good old days, well they really weren’t that good. I don’t miss previous OSes, not even the good feature.

Also if they make a PC-OS and a Phone-OS (and W-RT), they have to be fully data-compatible. No question of “Oh, you can edit that on your PC but not the Phone” or vice-versa. Total data-compliance is a must. But just looking at the current MS-Office mess it looks doubtful (Desktop, Live, 365, all with problems – why so many disparate varieties?).

Umm… what documents can you not open and edit? People I know love the across the board computability that didn’t exist even a few years ago.

And another thing – how come Apple made the transition from a 32-bit single-tasking OS to a 64-bit multi-tasking OS so simple for users (with just one major jump at OS-10 then carry on as normal), yet after XP-64, Vista-64, W7-64 and W8-64, MS-Office is still only truly reliable in its 32-bit format? And IE-8 wasn’t reliably usable in it’s 64-bit version either, even after making 64-bit OS’s for 10 years.

Because Apple locks down everything. The reason they will not license the OS to 3^rd parties is to avoid precisely what you are talking about. You say below you don’t want that walled environment. MS cannot and does not try to control every device made. People blame their crashes on MS and the operating system. In my experience its poorly written code that causes Windows to crash. Not sure what you’re seeing with 64 bit MS office. Every 64 bit program I run is rock solid.

But I still have hopes for Linux.

I did too many years ago. But the open source community is so disjointed, its not ever likely to be a viable Windows or OSx replacement save for the most technically inclined and very serious hobbyists. BTW, I hope you don’t think I was tearing you down! I think some of your points raised some interesting dialog. I’m just sharing my thoughts.

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My brand new truck has a clutch. I hate automatic transmissions!
Joe

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My brand new truck has a clutch. I hate automatic transmissions!
Joe

And towing a travel trailer with a manual trans sucks rocks. To each his own. IMHO, there is only one place left for a manual transmission, and that’s a sports car or sports sedan.

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Well, aside from the fact that there may be some misunderstanding to what I say or why it’s said & aside from any insults about typos & more & some (people) being a negative towards MS as much as it’s thought I am in favor of Win8… if my inputs are not liked… why not just ignore them (instead).

Cheers,
Drew

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“Why remove the old start button & menu?”

Actually, indeed this was answered long ago; as I recall the asker just didn’t like the answer & insisted, therefore, that it was not getting answered or @ least, not to their satisfaction.

Maybe this will be the last time answering this. I will preface by saying the facts & belief or acceptance are 2 different things. It may be fun to go w/ theories of nefarious, conspiracies, clever plots & nasty marketing ploys but, those don’t hold water. Any business welcomes customers but, nothing forces a person to spend their money anywhere on anything. Plus nothing forces a person to visit the MS Store or buy anything from it, no more than any other store, commercial service or business of any kind. Now, the idea, ‘on paper’ w/ Windows8 is its Start icon leads to a Start screen of Tiles which, is suppose to be its graphical start menu rather than the old button leading to a textual menu. Even this does not force anything since Windows8 can be used w/out ever going to that Start screen & the Tiles; even the use of Win8 APPs is completely optional; and APPs can be used even w/out going to the Start screen & Tiles to access them.

Back to answering the question… There are 2 reasons for the change. (1) Use of the old start button & menu had dropped off drastically & dramatically & (2) is strictly technical… does not fit w/ the overall design of the system. Similar things from other companies are basically the same as Win8.

Please, don’t shoot the messenger, even though some readers may choose to believe it’s surreptitious not, technical. Whether you choose to accept or grasp something or not, it, still, remains what it is.

To try to pacify a bit… if the new Start icon, Start screen, Tile type menu really annoys you, don’t use any of it… you can, still, use Windows8 w/out any of that… all optional. APPs are optional & can be used w/ or w/out using the Start icon, screen or Tiles. And, btw, w/out adding any 3rd Party stuff but, even that is optional.

To recap, removed due to lack of use & in keeping w/ technical reasons; not to coerce you to buy something.

Hopefully will not need to answer this, again, or repeat the query

Cheers,
Drew

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John,

I read that article a few days ago. He says a number of things, as you indicate, that are incorrect or @ least, skewed. If nothing else his implication that the only way to use 8 is by hitting the Start icon > the Start screen & Tiles (as its start menu. Except there is no obligation for that. Did he mention one does not need a Touch screen? You’re right, there were a few other things he had wrong or inaccurate or incomplete that ended up being generally a bit misleading. This kind of thing continues to colour things for End Users in a negative light. It will end up falling on the shoulders of IT Pros to rise to the challenge of clarifying things for people, after the fact. Just the nature of our job part of why we do what we do… to help people sort the chaff from the wheat.

Cheers,
Drew

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The win SXS and the SysWoW64 folders are also an attempt by MS to rectify the once problematic “dll hell” that plauged previous operating systems.
The registry has become a bit more advanced since the days of XP, needing less pruning in W7, and I would suspect, W8 too.
But a strategically timed restore of a previously made image of a fresh OS install can help mitigate the growth in the above folders
described by Bob, but you’ll still have to do a little work to get there.

The best way to mitigate against this growth would be to do a clean install of the OS, all it’s updates, drivers, and of course all the
many installed programs. Of course the second best way to control this growth is through a restore of a freshly installed OS, just prior
to all of the above installed additions. This is a good thing, it will provide the opportunity to install fresh updated drivers, and
updated versions of all ones programs too, which would still contribute to the SXS and WOW64 bloat if one was uninstalling or installing over top of.

So there will be no way to get out of doing a little bit of work if your someone who bulks at doing such things.
Lazy people’s computers will always be slower than someone who knows what it takes to keep their systems responsive and puts the time
in to do so. It’s still a maintenance job, just like junk cleanup and defragmenting, and it’s still a just as needed as a chore to be done.

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“And I can adapt to Metro if I have to. Don’t like it, but can use it. Just another crazy interface, if you ask me.”

Just a quick, brief, reminder, if the above applies to the overall UI then, fair enough BUT, if it applies, specifically, to the Start screen & its Tiles that “crazy interface” is not a ‘must use’, thing.

Also, I would suggest, someone w/ a new Win8 machine in their hands could, if they don’t know someone already familiar w/ the OS, look @ ITS Help & Getting Started sections for instruction, tips & guidance; certainly, helped enlighten me to the ways of Win8 very fast.

Oh, yes, before you bother to tell me how blind & stupid I’m being w/ that suggestion… right, they don’t, won’t look there, can’t be able to even figure out how to find that should the idea even occur to them… I think you’ve drilled all this into my ignorant head, already. Maybe, I’ll tell me customers how to find it, anyway, just to try to be aide folks in some positive atmosphere. And in that light, think I’ll admit to them that Win8 is different & help them learn the differences rather than tell them it is weird. People can deal w/ differences better than how humans react to ‘weird’.

Cheers,
Drew

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I hope the polarized discussions at least calm. I think discussions on just opinions tend to get very polarized. The discussions on facts and tips are far more interesting to me. Some opinions are fine, but discussions that just irritate people do not help this open discourse. For those just coming to the Lounge, look through all the excellent threads that will give you tips to make this excellent OS work for you, not the other way around. You will not be disappointed.

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I do plan to take advantage of the pricing on 10-26 to get a copy of Windows 8, primarily to be able to help my friends who get it by buying a new computer. I dual-boot my desktop now with Windows 7 Home Premium on one drive and Windows 7 Ultimate on another drive, and I’ll upgrade the Home Premium side. I’ll make a drive image of it. I won’t install anything there, though, just have the OS available. I’ll be able to switch between Home Premium and Windows 8 at any time just by restoring my drive images.

I won’t be using Windows 8 (other than getting familiar enough with it to be able to help friends and clients) because I don’t have any reason to. Windows 7 works just fine for me. Windows XP still works fine for me, but no one makes XP drivers for newer hardware. Hardware eventually wears out and must be replaced, and that’s the only definitive reason I upgraded to Windows 7.

I skipped Windows Vista because I had no compelling reason to upgrade. Fortunately, enough people were like-minded that hardware makers had to satisfy a large user base of XP, and continued to churn out drivers for that OS. Windows 7 adoption (and MS’ end-of-life for XP) made the XP driver availability dwindle down to pretty much nothing, and that is what made it expedient for me to upgrade to Windows 7. I still dual boot XP on my Dell D800 laptop.

I don’t use a default installation of any Windows OS. I carve it up and put the system folders on different partitions/logical drives. I don’t use the MS approved method for moving folder locations; I developed my own method. I spread the installation over two hard drives for quicker performance. I don’t have the performance fall-off that many complain about, no blue screens or freezing (apart from the occaisional hardware failure). I haven’t done the reformat/reinstall dance since Windows 95 OSR2.

I don’t use the cloud except for one thing – I use Outlook for email, but I leave all my email on my ISP’s server (it is unlimited) for another backup in addition to my drive images, and access from WIFI hotspots. I don’t intend to change that, either. The programs and apps that I use regularly are installed on my PC, and I don’t foresee any need for additional programs or apps. My backup regimen allowed all my data from two desktops to survive a house fire, so I’m fairly confident in continuing along these same lines.

My Windows 7 experience is quick, crisp and stable. I don’t shut down my desktop, since I use Task Scheduler to take care of nearly all my routine maintenance, and I hibernate my laptops, so faster boot times aren’t relevant for me.

So, I will get a copy of Windows 8, but not to actually use it, just get familiar enough with it to help friends and clients. I’ll keep using Windows 7 until drivers start getting scarce. By that time, there’ll probably be a newer version or two of Windows.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

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Now that I have Start8 installed, I see Win8 as a dual purpose OS, like it should be I think. It just may pull me away from the tight relationship I have with XP over time, like Win7 never could; wait and see there…but not forever because XP will gradually become less useful along the lines of Win98SE and W2K.
On the device side, the touch screen side of the OS, there is no analog to go back to, or stay with. The value and usefulness of the device will still be paramount, but what I was missing I think, is the potential value of a device, provided it has enough “horsepower” to run a full version of Win8 well.

How many times do we see a person say, I just love my iPad, it does everything I need; and from the backpack, they proceed to pull out the stand, then the wireless keyboard, then the storage device then maybe a wireless mouse…there’s a person with serious denial issues, and the iPad is basically a glorified typewriter at that point anyway…well, substitute the W8 OS and what do you have? That’s right, Yatzee!
Windows 8 is aimed directly at a market population that, for Microsoft, does not exist yet and I think its just about the time devices are getting powerful enough to run a full OS so, double score.
So now, I think…I think my mind can rest easy unless someone upsets my apple cart. No one here is the true target audience of Win8, yet. Device users are not going to miss a start menu and its going to seem more integrated with the the modern U.I. without it. I think its a pretty good plan, it might even find a significant amount of vertical business integration because it should be far superior to any touch device they’re using now as long as the interface stays as slick and useable as it is for competing products; competing products that have no “real” OS waiting in the wings.

So for me, I think the discussion of shortcomings on the traditional desktop interface side are now arbitrary. If one likes or can’t function nearly as efficiently without a start menu, put one in. You’ll notice that Microsoft seems not to hinder third party software in any way from doing this; and they certainly could if they wanted to. Time to stop thinking like a desktop user, and think like a touch device user (full version, not RT) even if one is going to stick with non-touch interfaces exclusively, and all becomes clear!

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This has mirrored my observations precisely. I find that Win 8 works very well on our present conventional laptops, and will work very effectively on a future touch enabled, yet powerful tablet, one that can use the full Win 8 Pro, not the stripped down Win RT.

I do not find any shortcoming with Win 8 on a conventional PC, but I have also installed a Start Orb alternative, in my case Classic Shell. And when I finally add a tablet (the Surface Pro looks to have the features I will be looking for) I will then be able to use the system with legacy apps I already have and enjoy and have the benefits of the touch system. Our laptops seem more responsive using Win 8. Anything I can do on Win 7 I can duplicate on Win 8, but in many cases faster. Plus there are some things that are better, my favorite games for example.

I have often said that Win 7 was a very good OS and I still believe so. But in my case the price of Win 8 is right so now seems as good time as any to make the change.

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My laptop supports touch (although just one point) and even with just one point, there are some Metro apps that are really cool and work fine in touch mode. I think we’ll see a lot of new stuff showing up in the Metro arena which may be quite interesting, so that is my justification for Windows 8, plus the added efficiency of the 8’s desktop. Just today, while browsing the Store I found some apps that I know from using them in Windows Phone. It’s pretty cool to have them in my laptop.

I see this dual nature of Windows persisting for a long time. Some apps simply do not make sense in a Metro version and those will need a desktop, though I am certain there will be a concentration of efforts in the Metro side. RT seems a bit scarce, app wise, for now, so I am thinking Microsoft will be directing its efforts to change that.

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Chuck, thanks for a very in depth dialogue from a technical and network end of things. I cannot get as deep into the inner workings, I just know it works for me and the way I use Win 8. I find no shortcomings at all while on the desktop. I can do absolutely everything with Win 8 that I can do with Win 7, except that Win 8 seems quicker on our laptops. Plus we have the added benefit of features available in Win 8 that are not in Win 7 (see the article I reference from PC World).

I will happily move both our laptops to Win 8 after Friday. I might even get them both done in one day. Win 8 installs quite easily in my experience.

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Thank you, Chuck. Maybe will be taken better when coming from not just me. I’ve tried using the old car analogies, too. Appreciate the support & an expression similar to what I’ve trying to express, help clarify things for people & help w/ the perspective that towards things.

As long as there’s some gratitude expressed (@ least you got a “thank you”), it’s all good, regardless of the source, be it you or me or other like-minded individuals.

Cheers,
Drew

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Thank you, Chuck. Maybe will be taken better when coming from not just me. I’ve tried using the old car analogies, too. Appreciate the support & an expression similar to what I’ve trying to express, help clarify things for people & help w/ the perspective that towards things.

As long as there’s some gratitude expressed (@ least you got a “thank you”), it’s all good, regardless of the source, be it you or me or other like-minded individuals.

Cheers,
Drew

Thanks for the thought Drew! Let me qualify something. While I love the “under the hood” improvements of Win8 and I don’t find the Start Screen too awful, I don’t love it (the Start Screen) either. if anything will hurt it in the consumer space, it will be the Start Screen. People are like pendulums. They go to extremes and never see the middle ground. The Start Screen is so dramatically different from the Start Menu, in the same way that the Start Menu was different from Program Groups. People refuse to look deeper to what it really can do so they run the other way. And they will kick and scream and holler until they can’t breath. A year from now, MS will release SP1 which might, but probably won’t give the Start Menu back. But they will do something to make the “Metro” interface more palatable.

EDIT: I just had to add a thought to this. Windows 8 itself is a pretty good upgrade. But make no mistake, Metro apps are not prime time ready. I read something the other day (can’t find it now…) that MS will not have it ironed out for close to a year. I hope its doesn’t take that long, but if anything is was rushed to production, its the Metro apps.

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I wondered if someone would say something like that about the clutch part, taken out of context. Bit of a chuckle there, Joe, lol. And, although, off-topic, I agree w/ you, don’t like automatics, either.

Cheers,
Drew

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Uff. That as a little like shooting carp in a barrel. Do you think anyone takes a post like that seriously? Its so full of passion and the virtual guarantee that it will be bias in a fairly extreme manner is as sure as, umm, eggs is eggs?
Still its good it was responded to I guess, if one person thought it was possibly fact-based and unbiased.

I try Ubuntu about once a year, the OS is fantastic for what it is and I love the concept, but, consumer useability-wise, well, I keep trying it about once a year!

The only thing I might vary in agreeance with is the comparison of going from Windows 3.1 to a start menu based OS when relating it to the shift back to a lack of a start menu on the traditional desktop screen. Indeed, the modern U.I. screen is a graphical version of the start screen in many ways, however, its one designed for touch, not the relationally and precision accelerated mouse click interface. Its a paradigm shift alright, but not one to enhance usability of Windows in the traditional sense, but rather to break into the mobile touch device market they barely exist in at the moment, and it could be the big break Microsoft is looking for. As I mentioned earlier, I think its a good plan, but, I don’t really see anything [yet]that enhances my productivity as a strictly non-touch desktop user in the modern U.I., but some that seems to detract, like needlessly large, touch-designed tiles and apps and how does it handle multiple windows/applications? I don’t know because I’ve only been using it a short time, but again it seems needlessly large and touch-oriented.

So as I said earlier, I see the “play” now (at least I think I do) and I agree with it, can’t decide if Microsoft is giving its users enough credit or not, but I definitely see why the start menu was removed, but, I would not in any way relate it to the reasons it was put there in the first place. BTW, that was my first thought when I saw the traditional desktop without a start menu, it looked nearly the same as Windows 7 of course but I thought, what the heck, did I just go back in time to Windows 3.1! I didn’t see what a concerted and focused effort Windows 8 is to integrate into the mobile touch device market at the time. I do know enough now to state pretty authoritatively that anyone who tells me I should favor the modern U.I. over the traditional desktop U.I. when working almost exclusively with a mouse is blowing smoke. I can’t imagine at the moment there can be a best of both worlds either since my mouse laser is accurate to 1600 dpi or some silly number like that and on a good day I think I get about three smudges per inch with my finger. 😀

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I’m sorry, it’s just we’ve been seeing folks going on & on about start screens, start orbs, buttons, menus, tiles & such for 7 months or more. Having more to say about all that stuff than any other aspects of an OS or associated things. To someone who did use the start prior to Windows8 & doesn’t use the start screen in Windows8 & has tried to offer suggestions to pacify people upset or struggling over that stuff, only to get ‘eaten up’ for it… have to admit, it’s just all feeling rather ‘old’ & pointless & doesn’t matter (to me) much cause doesn’t affect me whose fine w/out it all. & if you try to suggest to people they could be too, it backfires so…

Myself, I try to be positive, accept what is, work w/ things as best as possible & try to help others; beyond or after that, seems nothing said or phrases used are acceptable so…

Guess I’m weird cus I can’t seem to get on the find fault w/ everything bandwagon so…

Cheers,
Drew

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Well, Doc was too logical to make sense to the “other” side if that makes sense. Makes sense to us but we’re all mainly using the same side of the brain.

The simplest way I can explain it now is that IF the start menu was there, and a new user finds the Desktop tile rather quickly, he or she finds very familiar territory, smack dab in the middle of the comfort zone. Microsoft has worked very hard to make the start screen a viable interface that bridges the gap with touch input, and they don’t want all that “advertisement” to go to waste, they want folks to try it out, see if it works well for their particular interests and see if they get an idea about how valuable it could be when considering a touch device.
If 9 out of 10 users switch over to the desktop and say hey, here we go, got everything I need right here, Microsoft loses that initiative they’ve constructed. So without the start menu, users check out that corner anyway, and back to the start screen they go, and there’s more time spent on the start screen, hopefully with the affect of the user becoming more familiar with and gaining some acceptance or even liking the start screen way of doing things.

The risk is of course that the majority rejects and is maddened by this, sending the vociferous ones off on a broad based diatribe against the company in general. However I think Microsoft sees the possible reward as outweighing the risk, especially if they can generate some good word of mouth early and have it spread.

I agree with ruirib about the dual nature of Widows 8 making the most sense, but first, they have to get the Start screen off the ground and seen as a viable component of Windows 8, with its own unique advantages.

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And many may actually take that road & develop a fondness or interest in the Start screen approach & whatever they discover there via its Tiles, some may not & not bother w/ it & navigate their way around in & from Desktop & investigate APPs via WinQ or end up going (back) to Start & some may find themselves suing some sort of hybrid but, in time, likely those who @ whatever point in time bother w/ Windows 8 @ all will in one way or another, to some degree or another by themselves or w/ ‘education’ from various sources ultimately embrace change, adapt, adjust, learn & discover the OS. At the end of the day, it is what it is & it is going to get used, by whomever, whenever for whatever reasons & bob’s your uncle. We can talk about it til the cows come home but, the fact remains it’s here & que sera, sera.

And, yes, no denying people are going to find it different. Years ago people found Windows 95 shockingly different such that MS had to put a wee <— Click Here pointing @ the newly introduced start button that is now treated as traumatic because it's now not there to point at (it) anymore. Somehow they survived when 95 was introduced… maybe they will survive this.

Beyond the superficial, 'cosmetics', if it's given 1/2 a chance, there's a pretty darn good OS. Given time & after the dust settles, maybe people will discover & use that, too…same as 95 and the rest that followed.

Maybe having a certain amount of consistent 'Look & Feel' across multiple devices will come to hold some value to people. Time will tell but the is a long road ahead to technology & generations of Users to travel it. It's tough sometimes for us all to see down that road or know what exactly there will be along the journey ahead. But, certainly, it will interesting, sometimes smooth, sometimes bumpy, lots of twists & turns and we will have to ride it out no matter what.

Cheers,
Drew

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By the way, I was making fun of the whole concept of buying anything which has RT or Windows 8 preinstalled at this stage when I made my “Let them eat System Builder” remark. Sheesh, some people can’t even take a joke!

(By the way, Marie Antoinette was not necessarily being imperious or insensitive. Explained here :

2. The phrase, in as much as it can be shown to be associated with the French nobility, can be interpreted in other ways, for example, it could have either ironic or even a genuine attempt to offer cake to the poor as an alternative to the bread that they couldn’t afford.

She may have been offering to open up the class-restricted but available supply of “cake” (brioche) to starving citizens who could not get any bread. For this she has been demonized in popular history. If in fact she ever really said the words at all, which is doubtful. But I digress…)

The inflexible Windows 8 $39.00 upgrade or preinstalled approaches will inevitably lead to lots of people stuck with something which they won’t like or use, and that in turn may make people dislike anything from Microsoft. Advantage, Apple.

In any capable device which can dual-boot and which can have a Full Version of Windows 8 installed, System Builder gives more flexibility than the $39.00 Upgrade which is not as flexible. All the more so in existing devices which could either be upgraded or dual-booted. As I have posted many times, people should think twice before jumping on the Windows 8 upgrade bandwagon, and four times before buying new devices which are stuck with OEM (Windows 8) RT.

-- rc primak

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By the way, I was making fun of the whole concept of buying anything which has RT or Windows 8 preinstalled at this stage when I made my “Let them eat System Builder” remark. Sheesh, some people can’t even take a joke!

How could we tell? (You said buy, not eat.) I thought you preferred serious tech discussions over wisecracks.

Bruce

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How could we tell? (You said buy, not eat.) I thought you preferred serious tech discussions over wisecracks.

Bruce

Good points. I am not without a sense of humor. Tone doesn’t always convey in print. Maybe I should bracket my more snarky remarks with [sarcasm] … [/sarcasm] pseudo-tags, just to make sure. And maybe end with a Winkie Smilie. Does that satisfy you?

-- rc primak

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