Computers – Gateway & HP

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Okay, I know a lot of you like Dell’s, but how do Gateway, HP and Compaq all fit in to the senerio? Waiting with anticipation for your input – will be guying a pc for son-in-law in the next week.

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I am using several that are NOT on your list. If you were to check out the Sony line you may be surprised.
We have 2 Sony laptops and I am no running a Sony 410 desk top. Fry’s locally (Renton, WA) have been running some good prices on the Sony’s

DaveA I am so far behind, I think I am First
Genealogy....confusing the dead and annoying the living

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I am using several that are NOT on your list. If you were to check out the Sony line you may be surprised.
We have 2 Sony laptops and I am no running a Sony 410 desk top. Fry’s locally (Renton, WA) have been running some good prices on the Sony’s

DaveA I am so far behind, I think I am First
Genealogy....confusing the dead and annoying the living

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I don’t know, I believe that if those vendors have quirks with their product – it is their problem and we should be able to discuss it openly. If they don’t like it, make a better product!

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I don’t know, I believe that if those vendors have quirks with their product – it is their problem and we should be able to discuss it openly. If they don’t like it, make a better product!

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Cowboy,
Care to explain yourself “good Manners to do so,,or is that ,,,Not Politically Correct to do so” ?

I know of NO rule against a valid input about any product, here at Woody’s Lounge.

DaveA I am so far behind, I think I am First
Genealogy....confusing the dead and annoying the living

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Cowboy,
Care to explain yourself “good Manners to do so,,or is that ,,,Not Politically Correct to do so” ?

I know of NO rule against a valid input about any product, here at Woody’s Lounge.

DaveA I am so far behind, I think I am First
Genealogy....confusing the dead and annoying the living

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I happen to have several years of mostly favorable experience with Gateway, but that doesn’t mean I know anything “bad” about the others. It has nothing to do with the hardware, but these days I think one question one needs to check on is whether or not you get a copy of the OS which is to be installed on the machine. I will NOT buy a machine that provides only a “restore” CD. There are just too many drawbacks to that if you have to install routines that didn’t get installed on shipment and other problems. Also, in limited experience with Compaq, I didn’t like the fact that they don’t format or prepare their hard drives in what could be called a “traditional” manner. I haven’t bought one lately, so I don’t know if they still do that.

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Funny, I have a friend that works for UPS and he says there are just as many Gateways coming back as going out. I love Dell for m friends and family, Great support and they’re reliable, For myself, (and the lounge) I like the Frankenstein machines. (Like Cowboy was saying) More powerful system for less money if you bild it yourself.

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Lynn.
Since you are in WA state, and if you want a good local built machine, check out http://shop.hdnw.com/asp/default.asp%5B/url%5D.
Hard Drives Northwest, Inc.
14504 NE 20th
Bellevue, WA 98007
Phone 425-644-6474
Fax 425-644-1963

DaveA I am so far behind, I think I am First
Genealogy....confusing the dead and annoying the living

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Ayup, local built is a good alternative, but beware that some local builders might cut corners to save money and use lower quality parts.
Also, there are he issues of warranty pass thru.

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This place has been around for a long time, and I have been involved in the purchase of over 30 machines. They put together a great machine.

DaveA I am so far behind, I think I am First
Genealogy....confusing the dead and annoying the living

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This place has been around for a long time, and I have been involved in the purchase of over 30 machines. They put together a great machine.

DaveA I am so far behind, I think I am First
Genealogy....confusing the dead and annoying the living

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Ayup, local built is a good alternative, but beware that some local builders might cut corners to save money and use lower quality parts.
Also, there are he issues of warranty pass thru.

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Lynn.
Since you are in WA state, and if you want a good local built machine, check out http://shop.hdnw.com/asp/default.asp%5B/url%5D.
Hard Drives Northwest, Inc.
14504 NE 20th
Bellevue, WA 98007
Phone 425-644-6474
Fax 425-644-1963

DaveA I am so far behind, I think I am First
Genealogy....confusing the dead and annoying the living

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With PC prices so low, one cannot easily, if at all, build a PC for less than buying from, say, Dell, especially when the cost of software is taken into account.

However, buiding gives one significant benefits, e.g.:

1. Longer warranty on some components.
2. Use of reatil, instead of OEM, software allows you to use MSFT for support and easier to get certain types of updates.
3. There’s a fairly active build your own community out there that can provide support, e.g., in the alt newsgroups.
4. Don’t need to waste time with inept customer service/support folkes at PC manufacturers.
5. Do not have to pay for support when PC warranty expires.

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I’m not talking about the $899 deals they have. My brother-in-law built a system for under $800. P4 2.8, 1 gig ram, 100 gb drive, IEEE, USB 2.0, 128 mb Video Sund blaster pro (don’t remember the video and sound exactly), and 17″ CRT. Go to Dell and configure that system and your at 1200-1500 easy.

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Almost forgot, DVD ROM AND DVD RW drives. Dell has it for $1188.00

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Almost forgot, DVD ROM AND DVD RW drives. Dell has it for $1188.00

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With PC prices so low, one cannot easily, if at all, build a PC for less than buying from, say, Dell, especially when the cost of software is taken into account.

However, buiding gives one significant benefits, e.g.:

1. Longer warranty on some components.
2. Use of reatil, instead of OEM, software allows you to use MSFT for support and easier to get certain types of updates.
3. There’s a fairly active build your own community out there that can provide support, e.g., in the alt newsgroups.
4. Don’t need to waste time with inept customer service/support folkes at PC manufacturers.
5. Do not have to pay for support when PC warranty expires.

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I have to join in the ranks of build it yourself machine voters. Always have built my own from the ground up and always had the capability to change or upgrade freely. Of course, if you are giving one as a gift, a ready made is OK, unless you volunteer to be the perpetual troubleshooter, guru and available tech support person for the donee.

So far as Gateway is concerned, there is an announcement today stating Gateway is buying eMachines and also closing ALL of it’s retail outlets here in the US. Now here is a frightening scenario: Gateway is buying but it’s top management is stepping down and being replaced by eMachine managers ! Talk about making sure you step back and think again about buying Gateway products!

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I have to join in the ranks of build it yourself machine voters. Always have built my own from the ground up and always had the capability to change or upgrade freely. Of course, if you are giving one as a gift, a ready made is OK, unless you volunteer to be the perpetual troubleshooter, guru and available tech support person for the donee.

So far as Gateway is concerned, there is an announcement today stating Gateway is buying eMachines and also closing ALL of it’s retail outlets here in the US. Now here is a frightening scenario: Gateway is buying but it’s top management is stepping down and being replaced by eMachine managers ! Talk about making sure you step back and think again about buying Gateway products!

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Funny, I have a friend that works for UPS and he says there are just as many Gateways coming back as going out. I love Dell for m friends and family, Great support and they’re reliable, For myself, (and the lounge) I like the Frankenstein machines. (Like Cowboy was saying) More powerful system for less money if you bild it yourself.

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Compaq is/was not the only one with the stupid drive partitioning.

I do agree that all software must be available on CD so you can re-install at will.

During the warranty period, you are stuck using what they give you, but soon after the warranty ends, I would install a retail version of the OS, if necessary, as a dual boot system.

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Compaq is/was not the only one with the stupid drive partitioning.

I do agree that all software must be available on CD so you can re-install at will.

During the warranty period, you are stuck using what they give you, but soon after the warranty ends, I would install a retail version of the OS, if necessary, as a dual boot system.

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Lynn,
I totally agree with Big Al. Get a PC that comes with an OS CD not a restore CD. If/when you or your son-in-law get done changing the PC to suit you’ll almost inevitably have to use the restore CD and be back to square one again.

Joe

--Joe

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Lynn,
I totally agree with Big Al. Get a PC that comes with an OS CD not a restore CD. If/when you or your son-in-law get done changing the PC to suit you’ll almost inevitably have to use the restore CD and be back to square one again.

Joe

--Joe

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Well, for what it’s worth, I gotta take the Cowboy approach in that as little as four years ago I could not find one off the shelf that was capable of upgrading, they all had on-motherboard video and no agp slot, they mostly had crappy 6 month term power supplies with the bare minimum of power capacity, and all the PCI slots( 3 I think for the most part) were mostly already filled with their stuff. I think that’s somewhat changed, but have not had one “customized” as I prefer to do it myself.

Now my mother and father have had an HP8somethinorother for 4 years with no problems. ‘Course they just play solitare and check their email for the most part also.

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IMHO – Here’s the problem – Generally speaking, you can’t go wrong with any of the big names (Dell, Gateway, HP, Compaq, Sony) – they are competent systems, one place to call for support, and they are inexpensive – chances are good it will serve you trouble free. When you open the boxes, there are user friendly pictures to tell you were to plug in the monitor, mouse, and keyboard. When you turn it on, you will constantly be reminded where you bought the computer from as they will plaster their splash screens everywhere (okay – a biased statement – splash screens don’t hurt anything). To cut costs, some motherboards are clamped to cases in the automated assembly process – upgrading the motherboard or adding drives in the future may not be possible with that case. To cut costs, manufacturers may use cheaper, generic, less powerful power supplies, slower memory modules, or barely adequate cooling – for sure they will use cheap noisy fans. Hopefully, there has been some testing before shipped.

Local Shop machines will cost a little more (they just don’t have the parts purchasing power of the big guys – by a 100,000 P4 processors at one time and you can get a pretty good price). But since the assembly is manual, everything is upgradeable. Not likely to get user friendly pictures for assembly. One place to call for support (except for software) – which is nice – so is DOA exchanges – a lot easier to take it back to the store you bought than have to deal with mail order returns. Local shops are better at doing a “burn in” – that is running it for a couple days to make sure everything works (pretty much accepted knowledge that if electronic components are going to fail, they will do so in the first few hours (couple days) of use),

Home built. Biggest advantage – you learn so much about PCs when you build it yourself. You make your own price compromises with your own use patterns in mind (are you building a game machine, childs or student PC, Home theater?). Do you want a better Monitor?. But, they cost more (not much if you shop wisely), you must install the OS and all the drivers, but that is easy too. In the end, you pat yourself on the back.

The biggest disadvantage of building your own is when the word gets out that you built your own – you’ll be local expert.

Bill (AFE7Ret)
Freedom isn't free!

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Well said, Bill. I would add that “roll your own” is not an option for everyone, but those who have done so would never go back to buying from a PC manufacturer. The upshot of buying OEM machines is that you can always blame someone else when it breaks. Build it yourself, and you can only blame yourself when something goes wrong.

Compaq is the only major brand I stay away from, they have a habit of using too many proprietary parts and designs. Now that they are owned by HP, I suspect that is likely to change, but then I always found HP systems overpriced compared to the competition.

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Heehee, the first machine I ever bought was an HP, and the reason I bought it was all other things being equal, I liked the compact size and “down to business” look of the box! Later in life this train of thought would come back to haunt me!

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Heehee, the first machine I ever bought was an HP, and the reason I bought it was all other things being equal, I liked the compact size and “down to business” look of the box! Later in life this train of thought would come back to haunt me!

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Well said, Bill. I would add that “roll your own” is not an option for everyone, but those who have done so would never go back to buying from a PC manufacturer. The upshot of buying OEM machines is that you can always blame someone else when it breaks. Build it yourself, and you can only blame yourself when something goes wrong.

Compaq is the only major brand I stay away from, they have a habit of using too many proprietary parts and designs. Now that they are owned by HP, I suspect that is likely to change, but then I always found HP systems overpriced compared to the competition.

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—————————————————————————-
The biggest disadvantage of building your own is when the word gets out that you built your own – you’ll be local expert.
—————————————————————————-

You hit the nail on the head there…I still get calls from people and companies I worked with 3 years ago! And I’m in the restaurant business (on the operations side)!

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—————————————————————————-
The biggest disadvantage of building your own is when the word gets out that you built your own – you’ll be local expert.
—————————————————————————-

You hit the nail on the head there…I still get calls from people and companies I worked with 3 years ago! And I’m in the restaurant business (on the operations side)!

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IMHO – Here’s the problem – Generally speaking, you can’t go wrong with any of the big names (Dell, Gateway, HP, Compaq, Sony) – they are competent systems, one place to call for support, and they are inexpensive – chances are good it will serve you trouble free. When you open the boxes, there are user friendly pictures to tell you were to plug in the monitor, mouse, and keyboard. When you turn it on, you will constantly be reminded where you bought the computer from as they will plaster their splash screens everywhere (okay – a biased statement – splash screens don’t hurt anything). To cut costs, some motherboards are clamped to cases in the automated assembly process – upgrading the motherboard or adding drives in the future may not be possible with that case. To cut costs, manufacturers may use cheaper, generic, less powerful power supplies, slower memory modules, or barely adequate cooling – for sure they will use cheap noisy fans. Hopefully, there has been some testing before shipped.

Local Shop machines will cost a little more (they just don’t have the parts purchasing power of the big guys – by a 100,000 P4 processors at one time and you can get a pretty good price). But since the assembly is manual, everything is upgradeable. Not likely to get user friendly pictures for assembly. One place to call for support (except for software) – which is nice – so is DOA exchanges – a lot easier to take it back to the store you bought than have to deal with mail order returns. Local shops are better at doing a “burn in” – that is running it for a couple days to make sure everything works (pretty much accepted knowledge that if electronic components are going to fail, they will do so in the first few hours (couple days) of use),

Home built. Biggest advantage – you learn so much about PCs when you build it yourself. You make your own price compromises with your own use patterns in mind (are you building a game machine, childs or student PC, Home theater?). Do you want a better Monitor?. But, they cost more (not much if you shop wisely), you must install the OS and all the drivers, but that is easy too. In the end, you pat yourself on the back.

The biggest disadvantage of building your own is when the word gets out that you built your own – you’ll be local expert.

Bill (AFE7Ret)
Freedom isn't free!

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Well, for what it’s worth, I gotta take the Cowboy approach in that as little as four years ago I could not find one off the shelf that was capable of upgrading, they all had on-motherboard video and no agp slot, they mostly had crappy 6 month term power supplies with the bare minimum of power capacity, and all the PCI slots( 3 I think for the most part) were mostly already filled with their stuff. I think that’s somewhat changed, but have not had one “customized” as I prefer to do it myself.

Now my mother and father have had an HP8somethinorother for 4 years with no problems. ‘Course they just play solitare and check their email for the most part also.

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Build yourself is best, but if giving the computer to someone, that someone had better know how to provide their own support.

Of the major PC manufacturers, support likely stinks for all of them, with Dell reputed to be the best of all for support.

For hardware, I’d recommend buying whichever system was best for non-proprietary parts. Micron still might be best for this.
I purchased a Micron system several years ago and have been disappointed in their support.

Don’t know if the above opinions are still valid.

In general, if the user needs support, I guess Dell is the way to go.
If the user does not need support, then build your own is the way to go,

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Build yourself is best, but if giving the computer to someone, that someone had better know how to provide their own support.

Of the major PC manufacturers, support likely stinks for all of them, with Dell reputed to be the best of all for support.

For hardware, I’d recommend buying whichever system was best for non-proprietary parts. Micron still might be best for this.
I purchased a Micron system several years ago and have been disappointed in their support.

Don’t know if the above opinions are still valid.

In general, if the user needs support, I guess Dell is the way to go.
If the user does not need support, then build your own is the way to go,

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When the time comes to decide whether to build, I’ll price it out,

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When the time comes to decide whether to build, I’ll price it out,

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I was going to build one if I needed another system.
So far I do not need another system.

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I was going to build one if I needed another system.
So far I do not need another system.

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Yes, and I have indeed summoned up the courage, but not the need to build one.

A few months after that posting, I changed my current main system as follows:

1. Increased memory from 384MB to 768MB, the max allowed.
2. Added a CD-RW drive.
3. Added a USB 2 card.
4. Added 2 Maxtor 80 GB external USB drives.
5. Added Dantz Retrospect
6. Added Nero/InCD

More recently, I added Easy Media Creator 7, largely becaue InCD, let’s see how I can say this politely, sucks!

Items 2 thru 6 cost me no money.
So I lost some of the incentive to build a system.

For most things, my old PII 400 serves me well.

Shortcomings include:

1. CPU is not fast enough to add a DVD writer and get support.
2. VB .NET compiles take longer than I’d like when an Office library is referenced.
3. VB .NET upgrades can take along time. For example, my Sort Performance program (496 pages of VB 6 code) takes over 3 hours to upgrade to VB .NET.
4. The Business Contact Manager in Office 2003 won’t install because it is erroneously led to believe that the system is a 398, not a 400. Installation software has no business checking for CPU speed.

I would expect to need a faster system by the time next version of Office is released.

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Yes, and I have indeed summoned up the courage, but not the need to build one.

A few months after that posting, I changed my current main system as follows:

1. Increased memory from 384MB to 768MB, the max allowed.
2. Added a CD-RW drive.
3. Added a USB 2 card.
4. Added 2 Maxtor 80 GB external USB drives.
5. Added Dantz Retrospect
6. Added Nero/InCD

More recently, I added Easy Media Creator 7, largely becaue InCD, let’s see how I can say this politely, sucks!

Items 2 thru 6 cost me no money.
So I lost some of the incentive to build a system.

For most things, my old PII 400 serves me well.

Shortcomings include:

1. CPU is not fast enough to add a DVD writer and get support.
2. VB .NET compiles take longer than I’d like when an Office library is referenced.
3. VB .NET upgrades can take along time. For example, my Sort Performance program (496 pages of VB 6 code) takes over 3 hours to upgrade to VB .NET.
4. The Business Contact Manager in Office 2003 won’t install because it is erroneously led to believe that the system is a 398, not a 400. Installation software has no business checking for CPU speed.

I would expect to need a faster system by the time next version of Office is released.

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Not with a 6 year old system.

Some of the cards are ISA.
And some of the cards are dated.

In any case, I would want more than 1 system.

Current systems are SCSI, but may use ATAPI on new system to save a few hundred dollars, but then I might not.

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Anymore, IDE/ATAPI is as fast as SCSI, so the price premium seems less than worthwhile. This is particularly true with the new SATA standard.

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I would expect anybody who’s anybody to be using the Promise RAID controller with a pair of SATA hard disks.

(I know *I* am!)

John

PS Love the dinky thin blue cables with the small plugs!

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Well, just call me nobody then….until I can afford to upgrade my status in life to “anybody!”

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Well, just call me nobody then….until I can afford to upgrade my status in life to “anybody!”

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PROMISE!!! BLAHHHH!!!!! I’ve (and friends) had BAD BAD experiences with the promise RAID controller.

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PROMISE!!! BLAHHHH!!!!! I’ve (and friends) had BAD BAD experiences with the promise RAID controller.

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I would expect anybody who’s anybody to be using the Promise RAID controller with a pair of SATA hard disks.

(I know *I* am!)

John

PS Love the dinky thin blue cables with the small plugs!

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Anymore, IDE/ATAPI is as fast as SCSI, so the price premium seems less than worthwhile. This is particularly true with the new SATA standard.

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Not with a 6 year old system.

Some of the cards are ISA.
And some of the cards are dated.

In any case, I would want more than 1 system.

Current systems are SCSI, but may use ATAPI on new system to save a few hundred dollars, but then I might not.

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Okay, It seems overwhelming that it is best to build your own. For me – it scares me to death! I have replaced Floppys, RAM, added RAM, CDRW’s, DVD’s, etc., but not anything beyond that. I am very familiar with software as I install lots of that here and also oversee our network, but the hardware end does scare me a bit and I don’t want to ruin anything. I get scared of installing the OS too. We have a good local company that builds systems ( http://www.inteknw.com ) they do cost more though as I can buy a system from DELL with a monitor, speakers, mouse, keyboard and software for the same price I would pay just for the PC unit from Intek. We have 3 Dells and 5 local builts. For my son-in-law I want the best system for the $ at a reasonable cost. He is getting his Masters and will be teaching secondary level English.

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You will have noted that Gateway pulled out of the UK and Ireland well over a year ago, and has now shut down all its stores in the US…

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You will have noted that Gateway pulled out of the UK and Ireland well over a year ago, and has now shut down all its stores in the US…

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It’s only scary until you build the first one. Then you find out how easy it really is, and you ask yourself “now why did I pay people to do this before?” If you’ve replaced the hardware you noted, building a system is not that much more work. All that is missing from your list is a motherboard and power supply; you already know how to plug everything else in.

Just remember the support issue: if you build it, you support it – whether you tell the recipient that you will or not.

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What is a good resource for me to look at in building my own?

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What is a good resource for me to look at in building my own?

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I have been thinking about building for the usual reason: . The two challenges I’m facing are time to do it and knowing which components play together best. I have messed about in PC’s in the past; completely stripped my old 386AT down when I had MB problems a hundred years ago, and I’ve added drives and such, but I’m way out of the loop on current technical hardware knowledge.

Which raises the question; anybody recommend where I can buy only a well-cooled full tower case already containing a high performance Power Supply/MotherBoard/CPU/Hard Drive/CDRW and installed OS? The rest I can work on over time; sound and frills aren’t immediately important to me, and I have a tolerable monitor.

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I have been thinking about building for the usual reason: . The two challenges I’m facing are time to do it and knowing which components play together best. I have messed about in PC’s in the past; completely stripped my old 386AT down when I had MB problems a hundred years ago, and I’ve added drives and such, but I’m way out of the loop on current technical hardware knowledge.

Which raises the question; anybody recommend where I can buy only a well-cooled full tower case already containing a high performance Power Supply/MotherBoard/CPU/Hard Drive/CDRW and installed OS? The rest I can work on over time; sound and frills aren’t immediately important to me, and I have a tolerable monitor.

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[indent]

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…a well-cooled full tower case already containing …

---

[/indent] Let’s see what others say about this, John, but I think you’ll be hard pressed to find such an animal. If you did, You will have taken away most of your options for “building.” I think you need to look for a good case with a power supply that provides the best power and start from there. I happen to like cases that have “rails” to make insertion and removal of devices easier, but that’s just from the success I’ve had in the past. Going on from that point, the motherboard is obviously the next most important selection and, like you, I’m a tad out of the loop on the best (current) selections. In the past I’ve tended to stick with Intel products but that’s probably far from the best alternative. Once you’ve made a decision on the case and the mobo, the rest is pretty easy and you can take your time buying the individual components.

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I can already tell you the next system that I put together will be an AMD64 based machine, bar none. Now that I’ve seen and used one, I have no interest in Intel!

The best way to choose a motherboard/CPU combo is to decide what you want to use first, and then look for reviews on the CPU/chipset platform. There are about a billion enthusiast sites that go into excruciating detail; experience has taught me that if you read around three or four reviews you will find the top contenders. I should have done this long ago before I wound up with a turkey of an Asus board. It’s about the only time in my life that I have been glad to have a motherboard go south (since I had to replace it).

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I was about to post back to Al and say, “that’s a fair response, where would I find a good ‘recipe’ for a proven component-compatible machine that I can assemble?” (I don’t have the time to do all that research.) So Mark, seriously – if you have and could provide me your AMD recipe, I’ll use it to cook up a machine.

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In light of everyone else’s recommendations, about the only thing I could add is the thought that a good, solid motherboard is well worth the investment. I have a SoyoP4S Ultra with 4 IDE slots that I have NEVER regretted buying. This mobo supports up to 8 hard drives (two of which are RAID enabled, depending on your choice of setup), enabling me to run a hard drive rack with a third or fourth hard drive for backups, plus two cd drives and a floppy. If you are going to cut some corners, cut somewhere else than the motherboard. A good quality, upgradeable mobo will save you money and some headaches in the long term and is the foundation to a fast, stable system.

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In light of everyone else’s recommendations, about the only thing I could add is the thought that a good, solid motherboard is well worth the investment. I have a SoyoP4S Ultra with 4 IDE slots that I have NEVER regretted buying. This mobo supports up to 8 hard drives (two of which are RAID enabled, depending on your choice of setup), enabling me to run a hard drive rack with a third or fourth hard drive for backups, plus two cd drives and a floppy. If you are going to cut some corners, cut somewhere else than the motherboard. A good quality, upgradeable mobo will save you money and some headaches in the long term and is the foundation to a fast, stable system.

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Sure thing, John. As it stands, there are two significant AMD platforms to choose from – the Athlon XP, and the Athlon FX. The FX is the 64 bit chip that is blowing the barn doors off of all the benchmarks and is making Intel nervous, but being the latest and greatest it also commands a price premium. Whichever processor you choose, the offerings are very similar.

You can decide which meets your needs best based on how much you want to spend and how interested you are in the latest and greatest. Which model you choose may vary; support for the 333/400 MHz frontside bus are what you want in Athlon XP systems; (HyperTransport) 800/1000 MHz is common for the Athlon FX line.

• Motherboards: both Epox and Gigabyte mainboards rate high on my list. They are very stable, and each can be overclocked well if that is something that takes your fancy. For a more value oriented approach (meaning there are fewer BIOS options for overclocking etc), consider ECS/Elitegroup boards. These too are very stable.
• Chipsets:
  • Look for boards that have the Via KT400 or KT600 chipset for Athlon XP systems. These are excellent performers at a reasonable price.
  • The nForce3 150 or 250 Chipset for Athlon FX is the logical choice. SiS also makes FX chipsets, but I haven’t had experience with them.
  • AMD chipsets are top performers and they also command a price premium. There are better alternatives.
  • Avoid anything made by ALi, they are very sluggish and you will be sorry![/list]
  • Memory support: Common these days is DDR 333, and DDR 400. I doubt that anyone would notice the difference between speeds, though. Place to shop for memory: Crucial. You won’t find a better place to buy memory, period.
  • Places to buy: I always start with PriceWatch and look for Motherboard/CPU combos. I have done a lot of business with BZBoyz and found them quick and reliable, with good service. You can often find specials on combos from online outlets. Look for OEM offerings, these exclude retail packaging and are usually a great deal cheaper.[/list]Hopefully that will get you a good start, but if there are other questions, of course….shoot away!

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Many thanks. Any thoughts on MSI mobos?

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Many welcomes. MSI is a good manufacturer also, but they tend to run a little higher on the price scale. They too, are an overclocker’s dream.

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Many welcomes. MSI is a good manufacturer also, but they tend to run a little higher on the price scale. They too, are an overclocker’s dream.

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Many thanks. Any thoughts on MSI mobos?

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Sure thing, John. As it stands, there are two significant AMD platforms to choose from – the Athlon XP, and the Athlon FX. The FX is the 64 bit chip that is blowing the barn doors off of all the benchmarks and is making Intel nervous, but being the latest and greatest it also commands a price premium. Whichever processor you choose, the offerings are very similar.

You can decide which meets your needs best based on how much you want to spend and how interested you are in the latest and greatest. Which model you choose may vary; support for the 333/400 MHz frontside bus are what you want in Athlon XP systems; (HyperTransport) 800/1000 MHz is common for the Athlon FX line.

• Motherboards: both Epox and Gigabyte mainboards rate high on my list. They are very stable, and each can be overclocked well if that is something that takes your fancy. For a more value oriented approach (meaning there are fewer BIOS options for overclocking etc), consider ECS/Elitegroup boards. These too are very stable.
• Chipsets:
  • Look for boards that have the Via KT400 or KT600 chipset for Athlon XP systems. These are excellent performers at a reasonable price.
  • The nForce3 150 or 250 Chipset for Athlon FX is the logical choice. SiS also makes FX chipsets, but I haven’t had experience with them.
  • AMD chipsets are top performers and they also command a price premium. There are better alternatives.
  • Avoid anything made by ALi, they are very sluggish and you will be sorry![/list]
  • Memory support: Common these days is DDR 333, and DDR 400. I doubt that anyone would notice the difference between speeds, though. Place to shop for memory: Crucial. You won’t find a better place to buy memory, period.
  • Places to buy: I always start with PriceWatch and look for Motherboard/CPU combos. I have done a lot of business with BZBoyz and found them quick and reliable, with good service. You can often find specials on combos from online outlets. Look for OEM offerings, these exclude retail packaging and are usually a great deal cheaper.[/list]Hopefully that will get you a good start, but if there are other questions, of course….shoot away!

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Best places to start may be:

http://forums.hardwareguys.com/ikonboard.cgi%5B/url%5D
http://www.motherboards.org/forums/%5B/url%5D
alt.comp.hardware-pc.homebuilt
alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt

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MWave – Great prices, never a problem. Bundles include motherboard, CPU and RAM – for $9 extra they mount the CPU, heatsink&Fan, RAM and TEST IT. Good warm fuzzy and decreases the risk of a DOA – and you don’t have to worry about the heatsink compound (I won’t get into the advantages using other products).
ZipZoomFly – Great prices – Free delivery on many items (well, MWave price + shipping = ZipZoomFly price) – great service – had 1 DOA – no hassle return.
NewEgg – Ordered lots – no problems.

Note about self-built:
1. Don’t be cheap on a case – even if you have to buy a new power supply. It does not have to be aluminum to be good – adequate ventilation compensates for any cooling the aluminum offers. Good cases are sturdy, no internal sharp edges, slide in rails or snap in drive cages, or both, for easy drive installation. Slide out motherboard trays are nice if you swap out boards often – most install the motherboard once in an otherwise empty case. A $100 case will buy a much better case than $50 – there are better cases at higher prices but the returns for the extra cash are not as great – often the extra costs goes to aesthetics (pretty lights) and fancy trim. Don’t even think of shipping a computer built in a cheap case. Some cases offer better noise reduction (something to keep in mind). Blowholes (fan on the top) are fantastic at expelling heat – not all cases have them – fan noise may be an issue. Go to CompuUSA or local computer store and open the cheapest and the most expensive cases – feel the metal edges inside, look at the drive mounts, corner reinforcements, twist/torque the whole case with side panel off – you’ll know quality when you feel it.

2. Don’t be cheap on a power supply – even if you have to throw one out that came with your case! Don’t go less than 350watts – 450 is overkill for 99% of us. Power does not equal quality. 350W of clean power is much better than 450W of dirty power. I like Antec TruPower power supplies – clean and fairly quiet. There are a few alternatives. Some higher end Antec cases come with Antec power supplies. Some dealers sell good cases and throw in a generic PS – but happy to upgrade.

3. EVERYONE SHOULD BE ON AN UPS!! An UPS regulates power much better than a surge protecting power strip, they protect against brown outs – no power strip can compensate for low voltage situations. And of course in the event of a complete blackout, an UPS will at least give you enough time to logoff and gracefully shut down.

4. Touch the case before, during, and all times in between to eliminate static discharges – the threshold of human awareness of an electrostatic discharge is greater than the ability of some ESD sensitive devices to withstand it – that is, you can shock and destroy a chip without even knowing there was a shock.

Bill (AFE7Ret)
Freedom isn't free!

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I’ve got to TOTALLY AGREE with Bill, especially about the case! I splurged a while back and bought a Lian Li PC-61 a while back (although not from the vendor in this link), and have never regretted it. Very sturdy, easy to take apart, lots of openings to add stuff as you go, no second thoughts here! One of the nicest things is a hard drive rack to to mount all the hard drives (currently run 3, plus 1 in a sliding rack), and 4 case fans.

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Yes, a lot of great information their Bill. We use a lot of the same vendors/equipment/methods in my office.

I have a few things to add. To guard against static discharge when you are working on your parts, why not get grounding strap? http://www.cyberguys.com/templates/searchd…asp?T1=116+0120%5B/url%5D . I bought a handful of these for the office, so I would always have one at hand. They are cheap.

One thing that people might want to consider is having your hadrware vendor installed the CPU & fan on the motherboard and test for you. Motherboard express will do this for you for a few extra sheckels, and it seems to me money well spent. I believe you get a nicer warranty if you do that as well. http://www.mbx.com/p/mbx/motherboard_test/%5B/url%5D . Their prices aren’t rock-bottom, but it’s a nice option to have the vendor deal with the most expensive parts. of the configuration. I didn’t opt for this when I bought my last CPU/Fan/Mobo/Memory, and I kind of wish I had, because I would have saved a lot of time wasting trying to figure out why my new parts wouldn’t boot!

JIm

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I had not heard of MBX or Motherboard Express – their assembly deal is similar to MWave and I think a justified expense for peace of mind – very professionaly looking site – too bad as merchants they have not done so well – check out ResellerRatings.com

Grounding straps are certainly a better way to go – they tend to keep the charge from building into a dangerous potential – as opposed to discharging often by finger method. I have a box of disposable (basically carbon paper) straps I use when I working out a lot of the case – still a strap all the time is the right thing to do. Cyberguys got an outstanding rating, BTW.

Bill (AFE7Ret)
Freedom isn't free!

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I had not heard of MBX or Motherboard Express – their assembly deal is similar to MWave and I think a justified expense for peace of mind – very professionaly looking site – too bad as merchants they have not done so well – check out ResellerRatings.com

>>>JAH
Interesting, I haven’t looked at Reseller’s Ratings for a while. But I checked both MBX and Cyberguys, and I foudn the results curious. Cyberguys got high results, even though there were a lot of people complaining that they often had items back-ordered. This is my BIG complaint about CG. Items drop off their inventory without notice and often go out of stock even when the web page says they are in stock. And once it’s out of stock, it’s out of stock for weeks. There were a lot of comments about fast shipping, but CG is the slowest shipper of the lot that I use. Seems to me that fast shipping matters mostly about where you are located rather than the company. Anyway, all of CG’s fulfillment is outsourced to another company, so if you like their shipping, you should put in a good review for “eFilliates”

On the other hand. Some of the Motherboard Express reviews were on the order of “Their prices are higher than I found on Pricewatch – Ergo they are dishonest and will rip you off.” Obviously not a very logical sort of opinion. I think MBX may have gotten jobbed a little on that site.

I use MBX as assemblers for my workstations, so I have some influence over them in getting the kind of service I want. I believe they are moving away from the “afficianado/builder customer to the “small business” customer, so they aren’t going to meet the prices of guys that just have to drop the item in a box. I haven’t had perfect service from them, but any problems I had were eventually solved.

And my sales rep actually knows something about computer technology, the kind of requirements I have, and his avaiable product line!

I should try disposable straps. I’m always loosing my grounding strap!

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Thanks to all for the advice and pointers to good reseller sources. The idea of purchasing a pretested Mobo-CPU-Fan combo appeals to me. One last general question: is tom’s hardware guide still (at least for those of us in the US) a reliable source of independent hardware reviews? Any words of warning about that site or its advertisers?

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Well, I’ve not heard anything particularly bad about their reputation. They are published in Germany however, so some of the products they review may not be avaiable on this side of the pond.

Jim
WTW Architects
Pittsburgh PA

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Well, I’ve not heard anything particularly bad about their reputation. They are published in Germany however, so some of the products they review may not be avaiable on this side of the pond.

Jim
WTW Architects
Pittsburgh PA

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Thanks to all for the advice and pointers to good reseller sources. The idea of purchasing a pretested Mobo-CPU-Fan combo appeals to me. One last general question: is tom’s hardware guide still (at least for those of us in the US) a reliable source of independent hardware reviews? Any words of warning about that site or its advertisers?

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I had not heard of MBX or Motherboard Express – their assembly deal is similar to MWave and I think a justified expense for peace of mind – very professionaly looking site – too bad as merchants they have not done so well – check out ResellerRatings.com

>>>JAH
Interesting, I haven’t looked at Reseller’s Ratings for a while. But I checked both MBX and Cyberguys, and I foudn the results curious. Cyberguys got high results, even though there were a lot of people complaining that they often had items back-ordered. This is my BIG complaint about CG. Items drop off their inventory without notice and often go out of stock even when the web page says they are in stock. And once it’s out of stock, it’s out of stock for weeks. There were a lot of comments about fast shipping, but CG is the slowest shipper of the lot that I use. Seems to me that fast shipping matters mostly about where you are located rather than the company. Anyway, all of CG’s fulfillment is outsourced to another company, so if you like their shipping, you should put in a good review for “eFilliates”

On the other hand. Some of the Motherboard Express reviews were on the order of “Their prices are higher than I found on Pricewatch – Ergo they are dishonest and will rip you off.” Obviously not a very logical sort of opinion. I think MBX may have gotten jobbed a little on that site.

I use MBX as assemblers for my workstations, so I have some influence over them in getting the kind of service I want. I believe they are moving away from the “afficianado/builder customer to the “small business” customer, so they aren’t going to meet the prices of guys that just have to drop the item in a box. I haven’t had perfect service from them, but any problems I had were eventually solved.

And my sales rep actually knows something about computer technology, the kind of requirements I have, and his avaiable product line!

I should try disposable straps. I’m always loosing my grounding strap!

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I had not heard of MBX or Motherboard Express – their assembly deal is similar to MWave and I think a justified expense for peace of mind – very professionaly looking site – too bad as merchants they have not done so well – check out ResellerRatings.com

Grounding straps are certainly a better way to go – they tend to keep the charge from building into a dangerous potential – as opposed to discharging often by finger method. I have a box of disposable (basically carbon paper) straps I use when I working out a lot of the case – still a strap all the time is the right thing to do. Cyberguys got an outstanding rating, BTW.

Bill (AFE7Ret)
Freedom isn't free!

Reply | Quote

Yes, a lot of great information their Bill. We use a lot of the same vendors/equipment/methods in my office.

I have a few things to add. To guard against static discharge when you are working on your parts, why not get grounding strap? http://www.cyberguys.com/templates/searchd…asp?T1=116+0120%5B/url%5D . I bought a handful of these for the office, so I would always have one at hand. They are cheap.

One thing that people might want to consider is having your hadrware vendor installed the CPU & fan on the motherboard and test for you. Motherboard express will do this for you for a few extra sheckels, and it seems to me money well spent. I believe you get a nicer warranty if you do that as well. http://www.mbx.com/p/mbx/motherboard_test/%5B/url%5D . Their prices aren’t rock-bottom, but it’s a nice option to have the vendor deal with the most expensive parts. of the configuration. I didn’t opt for this when I bought my last CPU/Fan/Mobo/Memory, and I kind of wish I had, because I would have saved a lot of time wasting trying to figure out why my new parts wouldn’t boot!

JIm

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I’ve got to TOTALLY AGREE with Bill, especially about the case! I splurged a while back and bought a Lian Li PC-61 a while back (although not from the vendor in this link), and have never regretted it. Very sturdy, easy to take apart, lots of openings to add stuff as you go, no second thoughts here! One of the nicest things is a hard drive rack to to mount all the hard drives (currently run 3, plus 1 in a sliding rack), and 4 case fans.

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Best places to start may be:

http://forums.hardwareguys.com/ikonboard.cgi%5B/url%5D
http://www.motherboards.org/forums/%5B/url%5D
alt.comp.hardware-pc.homebuilt
alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt

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I was about to post back to Al and say, “that’s a fair response, where would I find a good ‘recipe’ for a proven component-compatible machine that I can assemble?” (I don’t have the time to do all that research.) So Mark, seriously – if you have and could provide me your AMD recipe, I’ll use it to cook up a machine.

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Mark,

My biggest objection with AMD CPU’s is that they run very HOT
You have to be very careful that you have proper cooling for those ######s. They also need a superior cooling fan, beyond what is spec’d by AMD as an “authorized” fan for their chips.
They are fast though and I have built a few using their devices.

Gigabyte is my first choice for a MB.

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[indent]

---

…proper cooling for those ######s…

---

[/indent] Like Johnny Fever said on WKRC In Cincy, can you say that on the radio?

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[indent]

---

…proper cooling for those ######s…

---

[/indent] Like Johnny Fever said on WKRC In Cincy, can you say that on the radio?

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I agree that they run hot, but the price differential wins me over every time. Seems silly to me to pay top dollar for the Intel name when the AMD equivalent runs every bit as well.

You did bring up a good point, though, and it applies to all home-built systems: cooling. Proper cooling is essential to the longevity of any electronic device. I have used a device called the 2CoolPC that is well worth the small investment, IMHO. It really makes a difference.

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I agree that they run hot, but the price differential wins me over every time. Seems silly to me to pay top dollar for the Intel name when the AMD equivalent runs every bit as well.

You did bring up a good point, though, and it applies to all home-built systems: cooling. Proper cooling is essential to the longevity of any electronic device. I have used a device called the 2CoolPC that is well worth the small investment, IMHO. It really makes a difference.

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Mark,

My biggest objection with AMD CPU’s is that they run very HOT
You have to be very careful that you have proper cooling for those ######s. They also need a superior cooling fan, beyond what is spec’d by AMD as an “authorized” fan for their chips.
They are fast though and I have built a few using their devices.

Gigabyte is my first choice for a MB.

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I can already tell you the next system that I put together will be an AMD64 based machine, bar none. Now that I’ve seen and used one, I have no interest in Intel!

The best way to choose a motherboard/CPU combo is to decide what you want to use first, and then look for reviews on the CPU/chipset platform. There are about a billion enthusiast sites that go into excruciating detail; experience has taught me that if you read around three or four reviews you will find the top contenders. I should have done this long ago before I wound up with a turkey of an Asus board. It’s about the only time in my life that I have been glad to have a motherboard go south (since I had to replace it).

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[indent]

---

…a well-cooled full tower case already containing …

---

[/indent] Let’s see what others say about this, John, but I think you’ll be hard pressed to find such an animal. If you did, You will have taken away most of your options for “building.” I think you need to look for a good case with a power supply that provides the best power and start from there. I happen to like cases that have “rails” to make insertion and removal of devices easier, but that’s just from the success I’ve had in the past. Going on from that point, the motherboard is obviously the next most important selection and, like you, I’m a tad out of the loop on the best (current) selections. In the past I’ve tended to stick with Intel products but that’s probably far from the best alternative. Once you’ve made a decision on the case and the mobo, the rest is pretty easy and you can take your time buying the individual components.

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John,

There are a number of outlets that sell “barebones” systems as you describe.

A good one fairly close to you is DIRECTRON

They list a good assortment and I have found them to be reliable and fast and competitively priced.

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Directron is actually where part of THIS server is from. I do ALOT of business with them.

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Directron is actually where part of THIS server is from. I do ALOT of business with them.

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John,

There are a number of outlets that sell “barebones” systems as you describe.

A good one fairly close to you is DIRECTRON

They list a good assortment and I have found them to be reliable and fast and competitively priced.

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It’s only scary until you build the first one. Then you find out how easy it really is, and you ask yourself “now why did I pay people to do this before?” If you’ve replaced the hardware you noted, building a system is not that much more work. All that is missing from your list is a motherboard and power supply; you already know how to plug everything else in.

Just remember the support issue: if you build it, you support it – whether you tell the recipient that you will or not.

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Okay, It seems overwhelming that it is best to build your own. For me – it scares me to death! I have replaced Floppys, RAM, added RAM, CDRW’s, DVD’s, etc., but not anything beyond that. I am very familiar with software as I install lots of that here and also oversee our network, but the hardware end does scare me a bit and I don’t want to ruin anything. I get scared of installing the OS too. We have a good local company that builds systems ( http://www.inteknw.com ) they do cost more though as I can buy a system from DELL with a monitor, speakers, mouse, keyboard and software for the same price I would pay just for the PC unit from Intek. We have 3 Dells and 5 local builts. For my son-in-law I want the best system for the $ at a reasonable cost. He is getting his Masters and will be teaching secondary level English.

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