Fact or myth: Never switch off computer

Topic

New Reply

Fact or Myth – never switch off Computer because ..,

I was told many years ago to never completely switch off a notebook or a box computer because
the expansion and contraction of the motherboard, CPU etc from hot to cold or cold to hot eventually something will prematurely crack and breakdown due to fatigue.

:rolleyes:

yes/no ??
Opinions and experiences if any most welcomed.

Reply | Quote

Replies

Very many years ago some people (the very elderly!) thought that you should always ensure that an electrical socket had a plug inserted in it, because otherwise the electricity would leak out all over the carpet!

The persons who suggested that you should leave computer equipment on may have been thinking of ‘thermal creep’, where surface-mounted components like the original push-in memory chips in the IBM PC, XT, AT… could gradually work their way out of their sockets due to the change in temperature produced by the power off/on cycles.

There are arguments that power-cycling electronic equipment stresses the components. A counter argument is that warm (powered on) equipment might be more stable. Others may say the best state is powered off.

My cable modem and router are always left on; my main PC is allowed to go to sleep (if only because the front push power switch is a bit dodgy); my printer is usually switched off. Take your pick!

BATcher

Plethora means a lot to me.

Reply | Quote

Very many years ago some people (the very elderly!) thought that you should always ensure that an electrical socket had a plug inserted in it, because otherwise the electricity would leak out all over the carpet!
The persons who suggested that you should leave computer equipment on may have been thinking of ‘thermal creep’, where surface-mounted components like the original push-in memory chips in the IBM PC, XT, AT… could gradually work their way out of their sockets due to the change in temperature produced by the power off/on cycles.
There are arguments that power-cycling electronic equipment stresses the components. A counter argument is that warm (powered on) equipment might be more stable. Others may say the best state is powered off.
My cable modem and router are always left on; my main PC is allowed to go to sleep (if only because the front push power switch is a bit dodgy); my printer is usually switched off. Take your pick!

I only Quote when there is something Profound that I want to stress, or add to.
I’m in total agreement with what ‘BATcher’ said, above.
On most desktop PC’s the power switch is indeed “a bit dodgy”. Or, they just plain BREAK from continued use.

But lets get practical for a moment. A home PC is made of the cheapest components, purchased from the lowers bidder, and only special and very expensive Servers were EVER meant to be left on all the time. I push my own, home-made, PC to the ragged edge, because it’s ON some days for ~18 hours. But when I’m done for the day (and I encourage all my customers to do this) I run a little Shortcut to the Windows Shutdown program, that will shutdown the computer in an orderly fashion, properly closing files, etc. On XP, that shortcut reads like this:
%windir%System32shutdown.exe -s -t 00 -f

But, it’s a little bit different for Windows 8, 8.1
%windir%System32shutdown.exe /s /t 0

You can just copy and paste whichever shortcut is right for your PC, into a NEW Desktop Shortcut, and you’ve got a fast and safe way to shutdown your PC.

Then once the computer shuts down and turns itself off, I reach back to the power strip that the PC is plugged into and I turn that OFF. Then, there is no power going to the PC at all. I have my BIOS programmed to turn the PC back on when line power is restored. So I very seldom have to even touch the Power Button on the tower itself. I’ll certainly not wear it out….and in nine years, I haven’t !!

In the morning, I have just one switch, on my power strip, to switch on and my whole system comes up in an orderly manner.

Modems (cable or DSL) are designed to be on all the time, and likewise most good quality Routers, so they are no problem, but probably should be plugged into a good quality UPS, for both surge protection and power backup.

I guess I’m kind of a UPS nut, because I have five of them in my house and all my electronics are backed up by them. In case of a severe storm, or Hurricane, when I might be without power for hours, my TV and Cable box are on a 600W UPS, with two car batteries attached, in place of the little Gel-Cells. I need the TV for weather reports, not just for entertainment. During Hurricane Frances, I kept that system up and running for five days, by recharging my UPS batteries off of my car.

But, back to the PC. Use it like any other home appliance, because basically that’s what it is, and when you’re done with it, Shut It Off. But don’t just turn it off, put it through the Windows shutdown procedure….. so files are closed and the registry, which resides in RAM memory while the PC is ON, will be written back to the hard drive.

However, even though all the lights are out and it seems like there’s nobody at home, your PSU (power supply unit) inside the PC is still connected to the mains and is still producing a low voltage to the motherboard. That’s why it’s so important to remove all power to the PC during thunder storms and when you’re away from the PC. All that takes is one simple switchable power strip.

Happy Computing!
The Doctor 😎

Reply | Quote

My experience over many years in the IT industry is that turning off and on is certainly no worse than leaving everything on.

Electronic components reliability are measured by the manufacturer in Mean Time Between Failures (MTBF) or failures per year. Your hard drive WILL fail if run long enough (after all it is a mechanical device), so in my mind power down or sleep will run the hard drive “less hours”.

In my specific case, I sleep my home server several times in the course of a day (if I don’t need it for a while). I keep all data files on the home server so that any PC in the house can access those files. I have both desktop PCs set to sleep after x minutes (roll your own flavor here based on your own needs). The server is slept overnight, but wakes up to take PC backups once per day.

So, personally (even though I don’t turn PCs “OFF” very often), I do sleep them on a regular basis as that seems to be the best compromise to me.

K

Reply | Quote

if only because the front push power switch is a bit dodgy

2 box pc’s and 1 notebook, all 3 eventually got on/off switch breakdowns since my first pc in 1992.

Only 1 pc had some sort of solder problem on the motherboard, where I had to place a full coffee cup to add weight on the top left corner of the box, then it worked OK.
Anywhere else it wouldn’t work. Had to be the top left corner.

So the myth has an origin. By the time I got around to getting it fixed $$-properly-$$, it was replaced instead with a newer pc using the same HD, ofcourse, and chucked the “left-corner-coffee cupper”.

Reply | Quote

I don’t shut anything down. My laptops hibernate, my printer goes into standby, my modem and router are always on, my desktop is always on because I use Task Scheduler to take care of most of my routine maintenance in the wee hours.

My reasons have nothing to do with whether or not it’s good/bad for the gear, and everything to do with availability. My oldest laptop was purchased in 2003, my newer laptop and my desktop were purchased in early 2010.

“Thermal creep” is real, but ACPI (Advanced Configuration and Power Interface) PC’s (anything built in the last several years) always leave some power on the motherboard–the on/off switch plugs into the motherboard, not the power supply (PSU), so thermal creep isn’t really an issue.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

Reply | Quote

Mechanical disks may wear out faster if they remain spinning, electronics may age due to heat stress if left on, the sudden power on may cause components to prematurely age. All are valid arguments, but I’ve seem a lot of dead PCs and the most common factor is age.
Backup your data for the day your PC fails, or you make a boo boo, and do your bit for the planet by switching things off when you don’t need them.

cheers, Paul

Reply | Quote

Personally, I have always shutdown my computers at night over the years with no detrimental effects to the computers. My view is that it gives the components a break and my electric bill a break.

Don't take yourself so seriously, no one else does 🙂
All W10 Pro at 22H2,(2 Desktops, 1 Laptop).

Reply | Quote

Leaving things on can be expensive, apparently…

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/consumertips/household-bills/10920520/The-devices-quietly-running-up-your-energy-bills.html

Reply | Quote

Ecotricity ignores the minor contribution to background heating which leaving these electronic devices powered up will make – useful during the winter. And ADSL routers should be left on permanently, anyway, for the technical reasons that a Google search will find!

BATcher

Plethora means a lot to me.

Reply | Quote

Fact or Myth – never switch off Computer because ..,

I was told many years ago to never completely switch off a notebook or a box computer because
the expansion and contraction of the motherboard, CPU etc from hot to cold or cold to hot eventually something will prematurely crack and breakdown due to fatigue.

:rolleyes:

yes/no ??
Opinions and experiences if any most welcomed.

I leave my computer on 24/7 for this very reason, unless I will be gone for a few days, in which case I shut it down and unplug it from the wall.

On the other hand, there is benefit to restarting Windows sometimes; but that can be accomplished with a restart rather than with an overnight shutdown.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

Reply | Quote

Off or left on has been discussed for years and what it all boils down to is ones personal preference.

I turn mine off at night..
The only benefit I can see from leaving it on at night is to not have to wait for it to boot..
But God, is a few minutes of boot time really worth it or that much of an inconvenience ?

Maybe I’ll apply for a Gov. grant to have a study on the benefits, or lack thereof, of leaving the PC on all night.

If they can get money to study sex habits of shrimp then by golly this study should easily qualify for Federal Funding..

Of course, the results will be posted here first.

Reply | Quote

You will be aware of the apparently-compulsory final line of all research reports:
“More research is needed”…

BATcher

Plethora means a lot to me.

Reply | Quote

Bahhhhahahah, yes, always MORE research needed…

Reply | Quote

A LOT more research! I can see the need for hiring a lot of others to assist with the research.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

Reply | Quote

It was good to see the breakdown of those who do shutdown each time and those who keep their system powered up. Much like Zen & the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance:rolleyes:

Reply | Quote

Fact or Myth – never switch off Computer because ..,

I was told many years ago to never completely switch off a notebook or a box computer because
the expansion and contraction of the motherboard, CPU etc from hot to cold or cold to hot eventually something will prematurely crack and breakdown due to fatigue.

:rolleyes:

yes/no ??
Opinions and experiences if any most welcomed.

Complete and utter bunk…It’s all about the power saving and nothing more.
If anything, shutting down reduces wear over a system being always “full on”.

Reply | Quote

I taught computer skills to retired adults for several years and at the start of each class we would debate shutting down the computers when not in use for long periods of time. I have always shut my computers off overnight. I do not like the drives running or the fans running (bearing wear on the shaft bearings). I do not like to waste energy. I have not had any unusual problems getting my systems started. Modern motherboards do not use many chip sockets or do not have any chip sockets. The only device that is left on in my network is the TV cable modem. The Linksys switch that I use to connect my computers to the network is shut down along with the computers and monitor. I had one student that was totally honest when I asked her why she left her equipment running full power all of the time. Her reply to my question was “I do not know how to start my computer if it is shut down so I leave everything running.”

Reply | Quote

This has gone 3 pages long, so took the hint and added a poll.

Reply | Quote

Shutdown vs sleeping, always a topic for discussion. The issue of wear is immaterial; an always-on machine won’t wear out. Turning the machine off means considerable thermal stress when powered on. Hard drives fail more frequently during power up because of bearing loading which is why production servers are rarely powered down. But today’s consumer equipment is so much more reliable that thermal stress and hard drive bearings are hardly an issue. The reality is that always-on wastes power that needs to be traded against convenience. The power companies are telling us to reduce our phantom loads (usually wall warts that use linear power supplies – the cheaper ones). An always-on computer is wasting power.

Reply | Quote

The problem of thermal stress of the motherboard and packages was handled many, many years ago. The materials and processes now allow equipment to last for >20 years in a 50% duty cycle test, 2H on 2Hr off @ 200C. The power savings of most machines at 10 on and 14 off is significant. The fact that most hard drives die at turn on is a statistic taken out of context. It is anecdotal rather than statistical. Servers are on because they are expected to be, they are paid for 24/7.
A computer cannot be hijacked if it is off.

Reply | Quote

From an elder, 75:

Been using PC’s in busn as an operations & marketing mgr. since the Vic 20, late 70’s and always shut down after use and never had a PC hdwe problem because of regular shutdowns. Anyway it’s a moot point as PC’s become obsolete after a few yr of use. I worry more about kludgy, poorly designed software, not just from the small guys, but the big guys as well.

klx

PS love this forum, you guys have been very helpful.

Reply | Quote

One of the issues that Microsoft “fixed” with Windows 8 is using UEFI and “fast start”. Therefore, to me, sleeping a PC (especially Windows8 PCs) makes for a MUCH quicker “resume” than powering down does.

Maybe if you use your PC once per day (say 08:00 to 09:00 each day) then powering down might be OK.

But, for those people like me, who hop on and off the PC multiple times during the day a better bet (again IMHO) is sleeping the PC. I sure do not want to wait for my PC to boot from scratch, logon, load all the “background” tasks etc.

Reply | Quote

One of the issues that Microsoft “fixed” with Windows 8 is using UEFI and “fast start”. Therefore, to me, sleeping a PC (especially Windows8 PCs) makes for a MUCH quicker “resume” than powering down does.

Fast startup in Windows 8 only applies after shutdown. It’s not relevant to sleeping:

Fast startup is turned in by default in Windows and is a setting that helps your PC start up faster after shutdown.

Windows does this by saving system info to a file upon shutdown so when you start your PC again, Windows uses that system info to resume your PC instead of restarting it.

Notes: The fast startup setting doesn’t apply to Restart. You need to shut down and then start your PC again for fast startup to take effect.

What is fast startup?

Bruce

Reply | Quote

Bruce,

OK, thanks for the update. I only have one PC here running 8 (the wife’s), so I hardly use itl.

I would think that coming out of sleep is still faster for “most” people than booting from scratch.

K

Reply | Quote

Complete and utter bunk…It’s all about the power saving and nothing more.
If anything, shutting down reduces wear over a system being always “full on”.

In the context of a typical home / office computer, especially any of decent quality and less than about ten years old, I wholly agree with you CLiNT.
Of the thousands of customers’ computers I have worked on during the past 15+ years motherboard failure has been fairly rare. In almost all cases the motherboard damage was due to mains power surges (lightning, unexpected power outages such as transformer failures, etc.).
A decent computer these days should boot into Windows certainly in less that three minutes – if not then something is causing it to be slower than it should be.
My production PC is about three-years-old (AMD FX8120 8-core CPU @ 3.1GHz / Gigabyte 990FXA-D3 motherboard / 2×2=4GB RAM / 256GB Kingston SSD / 2TB Seagate HDD). Before I fitted the SSD last October it usually took about 2.5 minutes before Win7 was ready to use. I was expecting it to be quicker with the SSD, but was very surprised at the huge difference; since fitting the SSD it boots and is ready to use in about 1m15s.

Edit: meant to add that it makes *no* sense to me to leave computers etc. powered on (even if in ‘sleep’ or ‘hibernate’ mode) while I am asleep in bed. Equipment that is powered-off at the wall socket is very unlikely to be damaged by power-surge.

Reply | Quote

Agreed Coochin…although it took me years to train my wife in that respect. Any more, I just change her power settings and sleep her after x minutes of inactivity. I don’t think she knows where to alter that .

K

Reply | Quote

I have had computers from the 386 days and have always turned them off when not in use, this has never caused a problem, they all have lasted until they were totally obsolete except One.

What brought on the demise of the only one that died prematurely was a leaking rechargeable battery that damaged the motherboard.

Turning the computers off when not in use has saved them from many power abnormality I am pretty confident.

Rick

Reply | Quote

I have had computers from the 386 days and have always turned them off when not in use, this has never caused a problem, they all have lasted until they were totally obsolete except One.

What brought on the demise of the only one that died prematurely was a leaking rechargeable battery that damaged the motherboard.

Turning the computers off when not in use has saved them from many power abnormality I am pretty confident.

Rick

So, do you unplug your computer from the wall when powering off? You could still suffer electrical power supply issues if still plugged into the wall especially with lightning around.

K

Reply | Quote

I turn off the power to the computer with a switched surge suppressor.
Back in the old days I had a power block that had a remote on off switch with a power relay in it that could be turned off and on by a switch on the desk.
It had the advantage if the power dropped it had to be manually be turned back on, haven’t seen one of those in years.

Reply | Quote

I turn off the power to the computer with a switched surge suppressor.
Back in the old days I had a power block that had a remote on off switch with a power relay in it that could be turned off and on by a switch on the desk.
It had the advantage if the power dropped it had to be manually be turned back on, haven’t seen one of those in years.

I had one like that for many years, it gave up the ghost a couple of months ago. I put in a new Bridge Rectifier but something else was screwy. Too much unidentified stuff for me to figure out. Now I have a isobar w/ a ‘remote’ switch, which seams to be line voltage. Hoping I don’t spill my bear on it. :p

🍻

Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.

Reply | Quote

My machines are shut down each night, I see no valid point in leaving them on.

Reply | Quote

How many millions of PC’s in business and industry are left on 24/7, particularly in production/manufacturing facilities that operate 24/7. How many more millions of PLC’s (Programmable Logic Controller) are on 24/7? How many millions of servers are shuttling billions/trillions of packets around the internet 24/7?

This is an endless debate, and people are going to do what they want to do regardless of the consensus of some thread on some discussion forum. My laptops hibernate for the simple reason that I want to put them to use when I open the lid. My desktop stays on for the simple reason that when I have time to use it, I don’t want to consume a lot of that time doing routine maintenance, so Task Scheduler takes care of my routine maintenance while I’m asleep.

Do whatever suits you, and don’t worry about us.

Always create a fresh drive image before making system changes/Windows updates; you may need to start over!

We all have our own reasons for doing the things that we do with our systems; we don't need anyone's approval, and we don't all have to do the same things.

We were all once "Average Users".

Computer Specs

Reply | Quote

I don’t see any debate here whatsoever…it all depends upon usage needs.
If you have a need for your system to be on all the time, that’s fine, work has got to get done, and that is what they’re built to do.

But the OP’s question of whether turning on and off regularly is causing the issues referred to is nothing more than myth.
You are far more likely to ruin or strip the front panel on/off switch than to heat or cold stress anything.

But yes, it’s a stupid and senseless debate, whether you turn your computer off or not.

Reply | Quote

I will declare for the turn it off pov. I save a little $$ and with my surge protector switched off I am a bit safer from power line spikes.

I just noticed thanks are kinda back :confused:

🍻

Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.

Reply | Quote

Leaving the putor on at night, I always assimilate to leaving your car idling over night as you might use it tomorrow. Electronics nowadays are very resilient. Yes, I turn mine off even during the day after I am through, maybe four times/day/ Be good.

Reply | Quote

For what it’s worth (and this info. goes back 25 years so probably not much) a large computer manufacturer once showed me their stats. on maintenance call-outs.

By far the busiest day of the year was Easter Tuesday because more companies shut down their computer systems over Easter weekend than during any other holiday period. December 27th was also very busy indeed. The cause? Mostly fans not restarting after being shut down for a couple of days, also some problems with power surges at power-on.

Consequently I got into the habit of keeping everything powered on and frequently vacuum the dust out of my desktop’s fans. I’ve never had a power-on failure and the only time I’ve ever had a heat failure was when my router fried.

Reply | Quote

I think this was more of a problem with the old thermionic valves (tubes to you Americans) than with modern electronic circuits. The threat of global warming is a far more real one — I switch off at the wall when I am not going to use the computer for a bit, e.g. overnight. How long do you want your computers to last? I have an 18 year old computer in the loft that still works, but I wouldn’t want to use it in everyday life!
The only time I have had something go wrong when powering on was when the heating had been off for a week because we were away over Christmas, and I switched on before the house had warmed up. That put paid to a hard-drive, which was painful because they were expensive on those days and it took a lot of floppies to back it up, and therefore hadn’t got a recent backup. But that was over 20 years ago…

Reply | Quote

As another elder, over 70 and a PC builder/tech for over 34 years, I agree with the “turn it off when you’re done with it” idea, like any other home appliance.

Home PC’s, not servers or mainframes, are made with Hobby Grade components, bought from the lowest bidder. These PC’s were NEVER designed or intended to be run in a 100% duty cycle (24×7). Witness, the cheap Chinese capacitors, that are causing failures of motherboards and PSU’s all over the world.
I’ve had to remove my own MSI motherboard twice, to replace failing capacitors. With new caps installed, my nine year old motherboard is running great.

Hard drives fail based on hours of ON time. Bearing failure is probably the #1 cause of HD failures and then there’s failures in the electronics caused by too much heat.
Remember, “Heat Kills”.

This Hard Drive controller card shorted out and burned up. The PSU was also destroyed. This drive came from a customer’s PC and was running at 100% duty cycle.

I’ve done thermal tests on Hard Drives while they were running, and I’ve found that most of the heat generated in a Hard Drive comes from the Stepping Motor that drives the platters. So one thing I’ve done, on my own PC’s, is to go into Power Management in the OS and set the hard drive to power down after 5 to 10 minutes of inactivity. The little bit of time it takes the drive to spin back up when needed, is of little or no consequence in the overall scheme of things.
The drive’s Downtime allows it to cool off between uses and can preserve its life.

I’ve not personally lost a hard drive now, in many years. First I buy only high quality drives and then I always run them at a minimal duty cycle.
And YES, I’ve always turned my PC’s OFF, when I’m not using them. I even turn off the power going into the PC, with a switchable power strip.

Hey….. it works for me! But I do respect the rights of others, to run their PC’s however they like, whether I think it’s right or wrong. Eh?

Cheers mates!
😎

Reply | Quote

I switch off at bedtime (or occasionally restart at other times) to clear memory (and caches?) and end unnecessary background processes, started and seeming to run even when a program has been ‘closed’. The thinking is: speedier computing.

Am I mistaken?

Reply | Quote

I managed a large SUN, Windows and Mac installation (>1000 machines) back in the 90s. The Sun machines ran 24 hours a day with a sleep mode when they weren’t being used for the monitors. Our admins (myself included) believed through inference, that the machines ran better by rebooting every 30 days, so we scheduled maintenance updates etc. once a month. Applied patches, (there were no security updates in those days!), and rebooted the machines. We had a pretty stable environment, and did not seem to see any problems by either leaving them on or off. OS instability was more the issue. Interestingly, none of our users every ran in Admin mode. Everyone was a standard account. It’s funny that Windows still really has problems (mainly the apps) with that.

Interesting that no one seems to mention the environmental costs of running a machine for hours when not needed. As usual, we think there’s no cost to us for wasting energy. As an ex-manager of a large datacenter after that Sun environment, I can assure you the business thinks of those costs today. Of course, many computers today have much better energy management than before.

But as to the components, while the computer could likely run for ages without a problem, the OS seems to need rebooting to run at best performance, especially if you are getting the ever present updates from MSFT (or any other OS company). Components do fail due to heat, but most computers seem to be well ventilated for running continuously.

Reply | Quote

Absolutely, power usage should be considered. It’s a large part of the reason why I sleep the PCs and the server at home. Having worked (most recently) at a 3 letter Government agency (but now retired) with a 100,000 SF data center and around 3,000 people in that building I can vouch for the fact that large shops pay attention to their power bills. Small shops as well as home should do the same. Much of the data center equipment itself ran 24/7 as we were that type of shop with connections to every state, other Federal agencies and some commercial outfits. But, as Alf mentions above, and in our case even the mainframes were “re-started” (IPLd in those terms) once per month even though not strictly. The z series mainframes are very reliable and have been for years (the z stood for zero downtime).

K

Reply | Quote

… I wonder why nobody clearly distinguished between company/corporate use and the average mom and pop home user that sometimes does not know where the power button is.

The point that IMHO all previous posters missed is one of security. Important updates for Windows quite often require the computer to be restarted. I was laughing out loud first time I read Windows 8 telling me they would restart in eight days (or was it ten?) if I didn’t do it right then.

I advise all my mostly non-technical customers to shut down every night. That is the only means I have found to get them to get all updates completely installed. These updates harden the system against existing viruses and threats.

Who wants to wait any longer than necessary to get that bit of free additional protection installed?

Reply | Quote

We all do elkelein, but often there is little to no difference in that the user on the desktop in the corporate world is really not much different than the mom and pop. The security issue is real, but it’s been my impression that most security upgrades these days seem to be forcing a reboot when done. I know my wife’s Windows machine seems to, much to her aggravation. (she hates to come in and have to relog in, in the morning). while you make a good point about shutting down every night to get the latest upgrades, believe me, I’ve been there, and that is not always the best policy. I’ve had numerous examples of my productivity software no longer working properly after MSFT’s best intentions. I always wait a day or so before upgrading, checking the blogs for any problems that have caused others, that took your advice, to lose a day of work or more. Adobe just recently got burned on this very issue with Apple’s OS.

Reply | Quote

Well, seems to me, that depending on “when” updates are downloaded versus “when” you shut down” on a given PC could make a difference here. Personally (on my PC) I never let Windows updates download and install automatically. On my wife’s PC, I make it automatic. If she ignores it….her problem I suppose. A windows update a few weeks ago (even after I waited several days to install the fixes) still caused multiple applications to crash…took me a little while to determine that it was a graphics driver update that caused all the mayhem. After I went to the AMD site and downloaded/installed the latest non-beta release that these crashes went away.

K

Reply | Quote

Anytime you turn the computer on from a powered down state it causes a surge of electricity to flow through the circuits. This always has a minute amount of damage to those circuits primarily at the weakest point (usually an impurity in the copper, a partial break or other restriction in the flow of electrons).

That said remember a plugged in PC is always partially powered up when turned “off.” The PSU or AC/DC converter takes wall power and coverts it to 12V and 3.3V and 5V DC for use by the computer. So the brunt of electrical surges should be borne by the PSU—and the better the PSU the better the handling of such current.

The wear and tear on electrical components while accumulative are pretty slight in simply turning it on from off over time. Plus this wear would equally exist in many phases waking up from a sleep state.

I just would not worry about it for the lifetime of the device: figuring most owners probably ride that horse for seven to twelve years, and their computers should be replaced by then having gotten the value out of their purchase. Well, that is my opinion on the matter.

If you have lousy power (like in a rural area) then further precautions might be warranted for all electrical equipment–frequent lightening storms–too but in this case disconnecting from the wall when not is use is the best solution and plugging back in somewhat harsh.

I have surge suppressors on most of my electrical equipment, UPS’ on PCs and generally turn my computers “off” at the end of the day putting them into sleep mode throughout the day when getting up. But this is due to my feeling that I like a complete memory wipe to start the day though one can safely get fast boots by multiple daily sleeping their PC for weeks until at some point an anomalous behavior is noted that usually gets cleared up by a reboot. For me the power up in the morning is no big deal as I am getting my coffee, etc. while the PC boots up.

Reply | Quote

FN…I agree with most of what you say especially the 7 to 12 year life on PCs etc. By the time that you reach that point, most people want a faster PC anyway. I still believe that if you have to replace more than one component (say, motherboard and hard drive…it is worth a serious look at replacing the PC (especially with laptops). Personally, I use UPSs on all of the desktop PCs and even two sets of big screen TV and receivers etc and have done so for many years.

I figure that rebooting is covered by the odd BSOD .

K

Reply | Quote

Well! Some say this has been argued over for nearly half a century, but it’s good to see it being aired again. So far, it seems that positives outweigh the negatives in the vote to switch OFF.

OK, the components will run and last forever. OK mom can’t find the on switch (can she operate her microwave?). OK, many are impatient and don’t want a cup-of-coffee wait while the system boots up.

BUT, some of us are environmentally conscious about wasting energy (US users, shale gas will not last forever). The on-off reboot alerts us to updates, security and otherwise. And OS works better, opening with a ‘clean sheet’ at day’s switch-on.

How do you vote?

Reply | Quote

I have a sleep button on my wireless keyboard and use that when I am finished using the computer, even for just an hour or so. Tapping the sleep button again quickly restores my desktop.

I do restart the computer at least once a week just to clear things up.

I use my laptop so seldom that I always turn it off when finished.

Reply | Quote

Going back in my memory to those giant mainframe computers that couldn’t keep up with early PC’s, the rule was that if the system would not be used for 3 hours, turn it off. As I grew older and retired, I tell people with PC’s, last one out of the room turns off all electricity. If you aren’t the last one out of the room and you will be gone for 2 or 3 hours, turn your computer off. At my last employer before retiring, there was a master switch which controlled most circuits in the building, and it was turned off every evening, leaving some lights on. Then we had to call security to turn the lights back on for the floor(s) where we would be working. And any time you will not be using your computer for 3 hours or more, turn it off.

In those days we heard the terrible stories about electricity being the enemy of circuits. And electricity creates heat. And turning electricity on and off damages electronic components. And electricity is too costly to waste. (Of course it was just as costly in someone’s home!)

The bottom line, if a computer in any environment feels hot on the case over the processor chip and/or the case over the power supply is quite hot, turn the computer off and improve the air flow thru and around the computer. If you will not return to use the computer for about 3 hours or more, turn the computer off or make it go into Hibernate. When in Sleep mode, the computer is still using electricity.

Outside of a company when you are talking of hundred’s of computers

Reply | Quote

There are many theories either way. Most are theoretical.
One is fact.
A shutdown computer consumes no power.

Reply | Quote

I shut down every night. Only because I have an old desktop and it hums loud during quiet time. As in sleeping. Doesn’t ever overheat. Fan works fine. Blow out the inside occasionally to relieve the dust buildup. My older laptop is never left on. Gets too hot. Not in overheating. I use free software to monitor temp in both. I did a Google search recently and read where a young lady fell asleep with the laptop on her thighs. Woke up with burn marks on her legs.

Reply | Quote

When they said laptop they were just kidding, they didn’t want to say thigh cooker TCPC.

Reply | Quote

Harry, we are happy for the input but you need to back up your assertions please.

“an always-on machine won’t wear out”
How do you know this?
“Hard drives fail more frequently during power up”
Ditto

cheers, Paul

Reply | Quote

I worked for many years with a bunch of Electrical Engineers…they could never agree on which “method” has the most stress.

“an always-on machine won’t wear out” – How so? Electronic components are rated typically in MTBF. Hard drives WILL fail at some point in time…they still have mechanical components which do NOT last forever. I had two Seagate 1.5Tb drives fail in my home server pretty close together. It is now running WD Black drives.

K

Reply | Quote

Another “elder” here too but a little younger than Bronze – only 64 here. I’ve worked in IT all my life and have never turned PC off when not being used since “sleep modes” came in. I had two seagate 1.5Tb drives go south in my server and those were replaced with WD black drives…so far, so good. I sleep the server also when not in use. I do have monitoring software running on the server that will notify both the console and my cellphone if HD temps (and other things) exceed the set limits.

Heat can kill electronic components although nowadays, solid state is much better in that respect.

Where in CF are you Bronze? I’m in Rockledge (on the space coast).

K

Reply | Quote

philomel

There are many theories either way. Most are theoretical.
One is fact.
A shutdown computer consumes no power.

If its unplugged or switched off w/ an AC line voltage power switch.
My old (and missed) Fellows remote switched Surge Protector actually had a relay w/ power to it from a bridge rectifier used to turn on. I never measured it but I am sure it was a much smaller draw than a ‘regular vampire tap’ . My new Surge Protector has a wire to the switch that is as heavy as the feed from the wall. I am guessing it is a 120 switch and thus draws zero current off.

🍻

Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.

Reply | Quote

So, when everyone is turning off their PCs…are they also unplugging them from their surge strips so that they can avoid any lightning related issues? I have had hardware go south during a big storm (my assumption then was lightning related as three separate components went “south” at the same time (CRT, FD comtroller and modem) – yes, this was a “while” ago).

I have run using APC UPSs ever since and so far (touches forehead) – I have NOT seen that type of issue again. Of course, living in FL tends to get me more lightning than some other places in the country.

Personally, I have opted for convenience and just “sleep” my PCs and server when not being used.

K

Reply | Quote

Personally, I have opted for convenience and just “sleep” my PCs and server when not being used.

Me too. And I don’t use a UPS. I have never had an issue even though we get some pretty violent storms in the summer here with lots of lightning.

Jerry

Reply | Quote

The lightening strike and UPS/Surge protector issues have been hotly debated from all points of view by VERY knowledgable sounding people that can not manage to agree. So I mostly take a deeep breathe and just do what feels right for me.
Having said that I will put me 2cents in on the HDD issue. If a HDD fails on startup it is at end-of-life anyway. Failing on startup when nothing important is yet being run may save a lot of grief by avoiding loosing new un backedup data in the middle of a run. From what I have read it is sometimes possible to start a stuck drive for long enough to extract important data that is not backedup, and you certainly know it is time to replace the failing HDD. This would seem to be an advantage over SSD which (again from what I have read) seem to fail completely and suddenly.

🍻

Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.

Reply | Quote

My Seagate server drives were about 2 years old when they failed. So, who knows when they will fail other than that they WILL fail at some point in time.

I keep all my data files on the server with several layers of backups being run. Father/son server share backups for offsite (with several generations of father/son on two rotating 1Tb drives).

I also keep a 2Tb ESATA drive in the home office where I take backups of the server shares twice per month (with 4 to 6 generations being kept on the ESATA drive (which stays powered off but still “connected” when not being used).

Having said that, I’m not worried about data loss but just about the time to install a new drive and recover the data files from one of the backups. The most awkward drive fail is when the server boot drive fails.

BTW, the server runs SMART software (now, but not before the Seagate drives failed), so I should get warnings from the SMART addon to the WHS software which sends me emails and notifies my cell phone. I check the drive status manually via the WHS console from time to time also.

All the PCs hard drives are backed up to the server every day also.

K

Reply | Quote

I never switch off any of my computers, unless I’m sure not gonna be anywhere near them for atleast 2 days or so. Even then, I always Hibernate them, never use Shut Down. In the past 7 months, out of my 3 PCs, I’ve only had to use Shut Down once on one PC, when I had to replace a bum PSU. I don’t bother putting the monitor in Sleep mode; I just issue the Sleep command from within Windows and turn the monitor off. So technically, only my console consumes power. Also, I close the lid on my laptop at the end of the day, which activates Sleep mode automatically.

I’ve been following this routine for over 5 years now and (knock on wood), I’ve not faced any issues so far. I stopped turning off my PCs, because I’m subjected to drastic temperature changes where I live, and I feel that keeping the PCs on does help regulate the internal temps. Besides, the entire turn-off-turn-on process takes way too long and being impatient by nature, I decided to follow this routine.

Reply | Quote

My present computer, at seven years old, is turned off and on once a day, with no known ill effects. Same was true for my previous computer, which was retired to back-up status after eight years of use. So, based on my limited experience with two computers over 15 years, there has been no known thermal fatigue.

Reply | Quote

My present computer, at seven years old, is turned off and on once a day, with no known ill effects. Same was true for my previous computer, which was retired to back-up status after eight years of use. So, based on my limited experience with two computers over 15 years, there has been no known thermal fatigue.

So, this is right back to observations earlier that this is all personal preference. I suspect that for people like me that hop on and off the PC all day long that sleeping would be a better way and maybe cloudsandskye “may” be better off than powering down.

I will say that “most” of the EEs that I worked with over many years subscribed to the power off philosophy is harder on electronic components than not powering off. Nowadays, with solid state stuff that may not be quite the same story. I don’t power off as it is inconvenient for me.

K

Reply | Quote

Here’s why.

I fix all my own electronic/electrical equipment, as well as family and friends’ desktop computers. My experience, as well as the widespread experience of professional service people. is that the electronic components to wear out the most quickly are almost always electrolytic capacitors. (This applies to computers, home audiovisual, and other electronic devices).

Electrolytic capacitors are cheap themselves (around 50c-$2 each), but if you’re paying for service work, can be so expensive to replace, that for a device a few years old you’d be better off just buying a new device. Circuit boards with tracks on each side can be a pain to solder, and just removing a cap from a crowded board can be a pain. Laptops can take dozens of hours to carefully assemble and disassemble for those new to it, with the risk of breaking them higher (and with tablets, generally held together with tape and glue, about one in two pysically break during servicing!). ‘Brick’ type power supplies can also be difficult to service, and are not always easily replaceable. Super-thin devices using surface-mount electronics such as new skool monitors might not be worth repairing at all.

Electrolytic capacitors have a limited running life, I’ve seen it estimated at around 5 years. By ‘running life’ I mean the total time the device has had power connected to it. Leave your computer on all the time, and you wear out its electrolytic capacitors quicker. So turn it off at the mains when there’s no good reason for it to be on. Hibernating or in Sleep Mode is not ‘off.’ Start->Shut Down is not fully ‘off’ unless you turn off mains power afterwards. Turn off all peripherals at the mains, too.

For similar reasons, laptop and any other (e.g. monitor, printer) powerpacks should be turned off at the mains when not in use.

As observed by others here, powering completely down when not in use is also better for the environment (less energy consumption), and easier on hard drives, whose estimated useful life is based not just on reading/writing amount but on total time powered up since manufacture (you’ll see this figure in SMART stats).

I’ve seen it stated that leaving devices powered on permanently is easier on semiconductors, but since semis are unlikely to be the first components to die, that isn’t an issue.

So turn all your computers/devices off when they don’t need to be on. For my desktop computer I plug the desktop and all peripherals into a single powerboard, and switch off the power to it when it’s not needed.

Asus N53SM & N53SN 64-bit laptops (Win7 Pro & Win10 Pro 64-bit multiboots), venerable HP Pavilion t760 32-bit desktop (XP & Win7 Pro multiboot), Oracle VirtualBox VM's: XP & Win7 32-bit, XP Mode, aged Samsung Galaxy S4, Samsung Galaxy Tab A 2019s (8" & 10.1"), Blu-ray burners, digital cameras, ext. HDDs (latest 5TB!), AnyDVD, Easeus ToDo Backup Home, Waterfox, more. Me: Aussie card-carrying Windows geek.

Reply | Quote

Thanks for the info…BigBad……for my use though…I have all my desktop PCs, server etc plugged in through UPSs which are under the desks…not too convenient for “turning off”. I sleep them for the convenience for me (as I (and the wife) are on and off the PCs for large parts of the day). I generally run a desktop for 9-10 years without issues like you quote. I suspect that laptops and tablets are much the way that you describe though.

I’ve been doing things “my way” since the late 80s or so. The only real PC problem that I had was prior to the late 80s and before I started using UPS. I suspect (but can’t prove) that vagaries of the 110V power supply coming into a PC cause more issues with PCs than most everything else. A good UPS at least keeps the voltage consistent.

I have often said that if you have an issue with one component on a PC, then replace the component (dependent on the cost). If you have a problem with two components then it is worth looking at a replacement PC and if three components are involved then definitely buy a new PC.

K

Here’s why.

I fix all my own electronic/electrical equipment, as well as family and friends’ desktop computers. My experience, as well as the widespread experience of professional service people. is that the electronic components to wear out the most quickly are almost always electrolytic capacitors. (This applies to computers, home audiovisual, and other electronic devices).

Electrolytic capacitors are cheap themselves (around 50c-$2 each), but if you’re paying for service work, can be so expensive to replace, that for a device a few years old you’d be better off just buying a new device. Circuit boards with tracks on each side can be a spain to solder, and just removing a cap from a crowded board can be a pain. Laptops can take dozens of hours to carefully assemble and disassemble for those new to it, with the risk of breaking them higher (and with tablets, generally held together with tape and glue, about one in two pysically break during servicing!). ‘Brick’ type power supplies can also be difficult to service, and are not always easily replaceable. Super-thin devices using surface-mount electronics such as new skool monitors might not be worth repairing at all.

Electrolytic capacitors have a limited running life, I’ve seen it estimated at around 5 years. By ‘running life’ I mean the total time the device has had power connected to it. Leave your computer on all the time, and you wear out its electrolytic capacitors quicker. So turn it off at the mains when there’s no good reason for it to be on. Hibernating or in Sleep Mode is not ‘off.’ Start->Shut Down is not fully ‘off’ unless you turn off mains power afterwards. Turn off all peripherals at the mains, too.

For similar reasons, laptop and any other (e.g. monitor, printer) powerpacks should be turned off at the mains when not in use.

As observed by others here, powering completely down when not in use is also better for the environment (less energy consumption), and easier on hard drives, whose estimated useful life is based not just on reading/writing amount but on total time powered up since manufacture (you’ll see this figure in SMART stats).

I’ve seen it stated that leaving devices powered on permanently is easier on semiconductors, but since semis are unlikely to be the first components to die, that isn’t an issue.

So turn all your computers/devices off when they don’t need to be on. For my desktop computer I plug the desktop and all peripherals into a single powerboard, and switch off the power to it when it’s not needed.

Reply | Quote

Electrolytic capacitors have a limited running life, I’ve seen it estimated at around 5 years. By ‘running life’ I mean the total time the device has had power connected to it.

bigbadsteve
I am already in your ‘camp’ but you have given me another arrow for my quiver. I must admit I had never given the capacitor aging angle even a quick thought.

🍻

Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.

Reply | Quote

Well, this site gives some data (I’m sure there are other sites also about elcaps):

http://jianghai-america.com/uploads/technology/JIANGHAI_Elcap_Lifetime_-_Estimation_AAL.pdf.

I don’t pretend to understand the data in this study, but on page 8 it talks about 7K to 20K hours for caps. So, for people that run, say, 8 hours per day on a PC this equates to 875 days to 2500 days (2.39 to 6.84 years).

I have had multiple PCs over the years that run longer than that. I’m not sure that I have tried to work out how many hours that I have a PC running for on any given day…I suspect that on many days I approach that 8 hour figure.

Anyways, for most people they will get a useful life out of a PC and then just buy another one. They are pretty much a commodity nowadays.

K

bigbadsteve
I am already in your ‘camp’ but you have given me another arrow for my quill. I must admit I had never given the capacitor aging angle even a quick thought.

Reply | Quote

Hoping I don’t spill my bear on it.

That might cause a “bruin-out.”

Zig

Reply | Quote

That might cause a “bruin-out.”

Zig

Oh Ouch I:p’ve been punsed.

🍻

Just because you don't know where you are going doesn't mean any road will get you there.

Reply | Quote