ISP will not allow Windows7 after EOL question

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Question from a novice:

My Internet Provider will forbid my W7 machine from accessing the internet on the End of support date. Fortunately, I have an OEM machine which came with W7Pro from the factory (as a downgrade from 8.1) and I will reboot with the 8.1 two disks (system on one and drivers on the other).  If, in 3 years, I would like to go back to 7:

1. why will I need all the security updates above, since the net will be inaccessible?
2. do I need 7 to be activated in 3 years, especially since it will not be admitted on the net? I mean, the bothering messages to activate will keep appearing?
3. which is best to make the system image now, Macrium or W7 Create-a-system-image? (I have an external HDD NTFS on which I simply copied my personal stuff, and which I would not like to lose through an unexpected formatting when creating an image).
4. Besides Open Shell, what else is there for 8.1 to look like 7? I emphasize that I do NOT need apps, nor social media, I want them turned completely off.

Thanks! (If this is in the wrong thread, please move it to where it belongs.)

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How can they stop you using whatever in/secure OS you want? Do they allow XP?
I’d ignore them.

What’s with the 3 year limit?
What’s wrong with upgrading to W10?

Backup software (Macrium. Aomei, EaseUs) does not format your disk to create an image. The image is stored in normal files and recreated on the new disk when you restore.
Stop using copy and get your backup software working properly.

I have Classic Start Menu on 8.1, works well. There are others you will find with a quick search.

cheers, Paul

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Wow, thanks, so fast a reply!

Yeah, the moment the Vista reached EOL support in 2017, I could not connect to the net anymore (from my home). It’s written in the contract with the IP.  I expect the same on Jan.14th. I also expect that in Jan.2024, when the 8.1 will expire, the IP to forbid my connection again. I fear that the  HP EliteDesk 700 G1 will then be obsolete for an upgrade to the future sophisticated version of W10.

I will look up your suggestions, I’ve never heard of the last two, many thanks. Sorry for the bother.

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I’ve never heard of an ISP blocking access to the internet for non-supported devices. It would have me asking serious questions of how they’re detecting what version you’re running as it sounds heavy-handed.

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Elly, ryegrass, FakeNinja, Steve, Myst, Cybertooth

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There’s no way I’d put up with that from an ISP. I think a change to another one is in order.

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FakeNinja, Kranium, Cybertooth

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I find it very difficult to understand why an ISP would block access for Windows 7 computers (and earlier Windows versions). Unless you are using some kind of direct connection device (like a cellular dongle plugged into your PC) or some kind of special login software – then your internet connection is made by your router – not the individual computers in your house.

It would I suppose be possible for your ISP to inspect the raw packet traffic and block anything that contains a signature indicating a “banned” version of Windows. But that then raises the question of what other operating systems they consider suspect – such as the many older versions of Linux found in any number of internet enabled smart devices. Sounds very odd to me.

Companies and your ISP do sometimes block or restrict access to their own websites or services such as webmail for security reasons – but to block onward access to the entire internet seems extreme.

Are you sure Vista stopped being able to connect because of the actions of your ISP – or is it more likely that something else happened that screwed up the setup on Vista. I have 30 years of experience as a computer engineer (albeit with just UK domestic work) and I have never heard of an ISP attempting anything like this. Are you in some authoritarian country that restricts your internet access?

Not sure if a VPN would allow you to circumvent that type of packet blocking – we would need input from a network tech to explain what elements of the TCP-IP packets remain unencrypted by the VPN software. In any case this type of packet blocking would still allow other devices connected to the router (such as iPhones, Tablets and other computers) to access the internet via your router. This should allow you to test what devices the block does or does not include – if in fact it exists at all.

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Elly

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I’ve never heard of an ISP blocking a User based on the version of Windows being used.
Do you own your router, or are you using one provided by the ISP?
Just out of curiosity, what ISP are you using? Do you have any other options in your area?

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Elly

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my long time childhood friend & his family have had AT&T business class DSL as the internet provider and one of his old PCs (an eMachines T5048 media center based desktop PC) is still running Windows XP Media Center edition, even until this day and the internet still works

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Elly, Myst

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I believe it is likely you can avoid the block on Windows 7, if you answer the questions above about who your ISP is, how many routers you have and who provides them, and how you connect your computer to the router or if you have only a cellular dongle.  The solution will likely be something like – if you have only their router, add your own router as well and connect to that instead.  Or, if they provide an antivirus + internet help suite that you are using, uninstall it (after backing up any personal data like bookmarks in a custom browser) and use Windows built in networking features to connect to the internet.

Windows 10 runs ok on most computers that run 7 or 8 ok.  If you choose to install 8 now, you probably can install Windows 10 3 years from now.  But considering that you probably can avoid the internet block, only upgrade to 8 or 10 if you would have anyway on their own merits.  Windows 10 can still be a free upgrade for most users, so compare the reasons to pick 7, 8, or 10 for your own situation.  To avoid having to change things twice, I would discourage choosing 8.  Also, IMO most of the telemetry you may hear about has already been retrofitted to your Windows 7 if you have been doing the updates.

I like Macrium for making backup images.  If your external drive is a WD Western Digital, that gives you the option to get free Acronis software which I think is also good.  Make sure to create an image – and not to do a copy or clone, if you have been keeping other assorted files on the drive.  If you make a Macrium image now of 7, and much later on restore it, it will have all the security updates that it currently has.

Probably the most important thing I have to say – the disks you have for Windows 8 are probably “factory restore” disks, not Windows 8 disks that work as an upgrade.  Using them I think will get rid of all data and programs that are now on your computer.  If you choose to do that, make sure you have the install disks and keys for all your software, and that you backup all data, including data that is not in an obvious place like emails and bookmarks.  And also make a good full backup image.  If you have any hesitation that you may not have your keys and disks for everything, or all your data backed up, do not proceed, make sure to get more advice, someone may be able to tell you tricks to do an upgrade install instead.

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Elly

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[Ascaris]

anonymous wrote:

Besides Open Shell, what else is there for 8.1 to look like 7? I emphasize that I do NOT need apps, nor social media, I want them turned completely off.

I agree with the others who have posted that it is very strange that an ISP would concern itself with detecting and blocking certain traffic.  They’ve already said what I would have, so I will move on to answer the question cited.

I wrote about that topic a few years ago, and it’s probably still valid, more or less.  I stopped using Windows at some point after I wrote that, so I no longer have the up-to-date info in my head, but given that MS has just about forgotten that 8.x exists, it’s probably still much as I remembered.

I also used install_wim_tweak.exe and a script I found somewhere to forcibly evict all of the apps.  If you search by that term, you should find some details, along with the warning to make sure you have a backup first, as these kinds of things are inherently risky.

It’s not a bad idea to upgrade to 8.1 just because it will still get security updates for 3 more years, but really, your ISP should not have a dog in this hunt,  so to speak.

Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
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• This reply was modified 5 years, 4 months ago by Ascaris. Reason: Forgot to provide the link

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Your downgrade rights expire along with win7 extended support.  Activation after a future fresh install would require telephone activation, which would likely be refused.  A disk image restore should work, but it’s a gamble at this point as to whether downgraded-to-win7 installs will remain activated after extended support ends, and, if so, for how long.

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I think you all are playing a sheepish trick on me. I wouldn’t have bothered to desist using the Vista and buy another computer with 7 and 8.1 (usable not in the same time), if I could still have access to the net with it (Vista), in 2017. And the modem Scientific Atlanta is provided by the ISP (working well since 2007, ethernet only), also using a router TPLink, no complaints, turned off all wifi. The ISP was recently bought by Vodafone. And yes, almost all HPs here come from Czechia. I’ll shut up, because I think I’m in the wrong forum. Thank you all.

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If the now Vodafone owned ISP is engaging in blocking access based on operating system then that far worse trick than other poster’s disbelief. This description of fingerprinting types is a post on the internet but maybe yes, what you claim it may be possible.

Although it offers no guarantee, are you able to purchase a different compatible modem?

Have you tried to change the browser’s user agent?

Have you tried a VPN service if it is legal to use inside Czechia?

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While I can’t speak for everyone, I don’t think anyone is accusing you of lying or playing a trick on you. I’m genuinely shocked that an ISP would do such a thing. I’d wonder if they’re decrypting encrypted traffic to find out this info, or is it down to user agent sniffing? It’s very odd.

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VPN wont solve the problem with connecting to the internet, I think. I am curious how that provider does the testing – some sort of SW? WMIC commands? Maybe ISP provided this PC to this gentleman, so he has the power over user. Mr. Anonymous did not stated this, or I cant find it.
Anyway I would definately look for another provider who does not dictate what I must use.

@anonymous – VPN is legal, you can use it in czechia

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No trick – in USA it is nearly unheard of for an ISP to block users who are on a certain OS.  Are you saying you are in Czechia, it isn’t clear.  However, your specific country and ISP could be different.  Note that the solution may be as simple as connecting by wifi instead of using wired – or, by connecting using windows wifi settings and removing ISP software – but, someone in your country may be the easiest to provide the answer like your neighbors or a local computer forum or club.

However, if your computer runs Windows 7 it should run Windows 10, and there is very little software that would be incompatible.  For most users running mainstream software, Windows 10 will work fine, and if you know how to make a full image backup you can try it out and go back if it doesn’t.

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Not only is it nearly unheard of, it’s also absurd.  I’m not saying that your ISP is not doing this, but if they are, they’re being absurd.

The most likely way it would do this is (assuming you’re not running any ISP client software on one of the PCs on the LAN) would be to sniff the useragent on outgoing HTTP packets, and blocking accordingly.  Nearly everything is HTTPS now, which would seem to make it harder for the ISP to intercept the data (the useragent string) and act on it, but I am not well-versed enough in the protocols involved to know that the useragent is not passed before the encryption begins.

An easy way to tell would be to simply spoof your useragent to be that of Windows Vista right now on whatever browser you wish, and see if that works.  You’re not actually using Vista, so if it is blocked, you have your answer… the ISP is taking the bad practice of useragent sniffing to a new level.

As far as ISPs are concerned, packets are packets, and those sent from XP are not fundamentally different than those sent by Windows 10, Linux, or MacOS.  There are ways of fingerprinting a network (use of the nmap program, for example) to find out what the OS really is, but that seems a bit extreme.

Having never heard of such thing actually happening before, I can only speculate about how it’s taking place.  If it were a common practice in the US or throughout Europe, I would think there would be plenty of info online describing how to defeat the blocking.

Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
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Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, Kubuntu 24.04 (and Win 11)

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I suggest you do the upgrade to Windows 8.1. This should prevent any issues with your ISP; and you will have 3 additional years of support from Microsoft.

Do an in-place upgrade to Windows 8.1 – run the setup file while in a Windows 7 session. Tell it to keep everything. It should preserve everything except for the minimum needed to actually get you from 7 to 8.1. (i.e. it will preserve all of your files and programs.) But just to be on the safe side, do a backup before proceeding.

If you don’t like the look and feel of Windows 8.1, install Classic Shell. Classic Shell will let you configure Windows 8.1 to look and feel just like Windows 7. That’s how I have my two Windows 8.1 computers set up, and quite frankly, I can hardly tell that they aren’t Windows 7.

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with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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OscarCP

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MrJimPhelps wrote:

upgrade to Windows 8.1. This should prevent any issues with your ISP

… “should”, but by no means guaranteed. Because if the ISP is doing something like that already – well, the detection isn’t going to be foolproof, and that’s not getting into…

anonymous wrote:

It’s written in the contract with the IP.

Yeah, that’ll depend on the exact wording of the contract then, and possibly local law and such. If the ISP can ban a Windows 7 with paid ESU, then they could also ban Windows 8.1 even when it’s in mainline support.

There are operating systems that you only get updates for if you’re paying for them, after all. (Not marketed for consumers…)

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