Windows 10 1709 still isn’t ready for prime time — and the latest buggy cumulative update, KB 4074588, proves the point

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I’m seeing a whole host of different problems with this month’s cumulative update for Win10 Fall Creators Update. Post coming in Computerworld.
[See the full post at: Windows 10 1709 still isn’t ready for prime time — and the latest buggy cumulative update, KB 4074588, proves the point]

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Question:
For those of us sitting on Win10 1703, who are lucky enough to have the PRO version….
We can delay “feature updates” (upgrades) for 365 days.
When does our time run out and we get forced with the still-Beta version of Win10 1709?
Or do we get rolled directly into v1803 if it’s released before v1709 is stable?

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With a 365-day clock, that apparently started in January, I hope your question answers itself before the timer runs out.

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I’m still sitting in Win 10 1703, but I’m not counting on the ‘delay feature updates’ to put off the updates.

With Win 10 Pro, and the local group policy editor, I have been able to keep updates at bay until I am ready for them.  “Configure automatic updates = disabled”.

“Specifies whether this computer will receive security updates and other important downloads through the Windows automatic updating service.”

“If the status for this policy is set to Disabled, any updates that are available on Windows Update must be downloaded and installed manually. To do this, search for Windows Update using Start.”

 

Windows 10 Pro 22H2

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radosuaf

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Your link to Computerworld comes up with page.blank

= Ax Kramer

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My mistake. It’s fixed now. Thanks!

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OK, this patch (4074588) is the one I mentioned is showing up twice on my “installed updates” tab.  The top one is “failed to install on (current day)” and then one down from that is “installed on 2/15”  So, hmmmmmm.

BTW maybe this patch, if it is in fact installed, is why your “Ludicrous” speed just isn’t!  Do not see any difference.

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I’m not seeing an increase in speed for individual posts, but it looks like we’ll be able to handle many more posts, especially around noon, US time. In the past, the site has slowed down horribly around noon. We’ll see what happens today.

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Elly

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No Windows 10 version or cumulative will be free from bugs

1709 was the least updated in RS versions

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woody

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Of course, every version of Windows has – and will have – bugs. Fact of life.

What bothers me is the number of bugs, and how they impact so many people.

Few RS versions means that 1709 is a “tock” update, and that’s fine. But it still isn’t as stable as the 1703 “tick” version, is it?

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abbodi86, lurks about

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Following up on the existence of bugs. There are two issues that users care about: being able to use their computers and reliable are the updates. Problems like USB ports not working mean that users can not use their computers as many devices use a USB connection including your keyboard and mouse. Since this problem was caused by a bad update, it makes people nervous about updates and installing them. MS is floundering on both points.

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WildBill, Cybertooth

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I wonder how long people will continue to put up with this mess before abandoning Windows.

Sometimes it takes a huge problem to get people to make a move, and at some point, people are going to start moving away from Microsoft. The snowball will start rolling, and Microsoft won’t be able to stop it once it starts.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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lurks about, geekdom

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Windows is still the best OS there is. Provided it’s 8.1 version :).

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Karlston, Noel Carboni

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8.1, with Classic Shell installed, is my choice for Windows OS:
1. With Classic Shell, it looks and feels just like Windows 7.
2. It will be supported with security patches till 2023.
3. It is your last chance to receive the old type of support from Microsoft.

Windows 8.1 is literally the only way for you to deal with the “old” Microsoft for a while longer.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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WildBill, Karlston, Elly, Noel Carboni, radosuaf

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Now that the author of Classic Shell has thrown in the towel (thanks for that, Win10!) I’ve got my fingers and toes crossed that some future Windows Update for 8.1 doesn’t cause breakage down the line.  One comfort is that since Win 8.1 is in extended support the scope and volume of future updates will likely be the minimal required.

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WildBill, Noel Carboni

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anonymous wrote:

Now that the author of Classic Shell has thrown in the towel (thanks for that, Win10!) I’ve got my fingers and toes crossed that some future Windows Update for 8.1 doesn’t cause breakage down the line. 

My main computer for five years (until Dec ’17) was Windows 8.0 Pro.  I still use it and deliberately did not “upgrade” it to 8.1 (which is worse than 8.0 and I did not want to have Microsoft try to force me to Windows 10 upgrade on it as Microsoft completely ignored  8.0 -as no direct upgrade to Win 10 is possible from it – which was such a blessing).  I use Start8 and Windowblinds on it from shortly after I got it. I thought about using Classic Shell but decided on Windowblinds and Start8 instead.  I love them both and immediately installed both (in version 10) on my new Windows 10 Pro computer.  $10 is nothing for what they provide in making both Win 8 and Win 10 more usable.  So, if there is a problem with Classic Shell in the future on 8.1, I would recommend you try Stardock’s Windowblinds and Start8.

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I actually love and find Start Screen more convenient than start menu 🙂

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…and I can partly agree :). Although I moved to using desktop shortcuts in 8.1, I have Windows Update pinned for example – you get there much quicker than in W7. And Search is a really nice option.

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True

Win-X menu is also very helpful once cutomized

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>I wonder how long people will continue to put up with this mess before abandoning Windows.

I consider my mom to be the average user. The other day she said she and a few of her colleagues had a brief discussion that they were interested in learning how to use Linux because of how bad Windows has become. They had a similar discussion apparently about how bad Office has become since 2007/2010 and were also discussing alternatives.

So to answer your question, it seems after 3 years of this, and constant problems, people will begin to look elsewhere.

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Elly

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MrJimPhelps wrote:

I wonder how long people will continue to put up with this mess before abandoning Windows. Sometimes it takes a huge problem to get people to make a move, and at some point, people are going to start moving away from Microsoft. The snowball will start rolling, and Microsoft won’t be able to stop it once it starts.

No, stop being a party-pooper.  Windows 10 keeps getting better, and better all the time.  You really need to provide more details.  I haven’t any issues.

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Really? then explain all of this bugs and the dissastified user base
And I won’t accept the answer  “that people believe fake publicity”

Since if what you are claiming is true then we wouldn’t need to be careful with feature updates and regular updates.

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I’m very happy for you that you haven’t any issues.

But you miss my point — The philosophy of Microsoft has changed. They are now forcing untested updates onto people’s computers. And it’s not just Windows 10 — it starts with Windows 7, where Microsoft now sends a “rollup” update (which includes EVERY update ever issued for Windows 7) every month, rather than individual updates.

Microsoft bricked my father-in-law’s computer. He had Windows 7, and I had installed the GWX Control Panel to block the forced Windows 10 upgrade. About a month later I was at his house, and he said that he got upgraded to Windows 10 and that his computer no longer worked. In other words, although he clearly didn’t want Windows 10, Microsoft took it upon themselves to install Windows 10 on his computer without his consent, bricking his computer in the process.

I mentioned “untested” updates, which brings me to my second point — Microsoft disbanded their testing department! They now expect the developers to do the testing! A developer can and should test what he writes; but there is no way he will have the depth of experience needed to fully test things. I truly believe that Microsoft considers the “home” and “pro” users to be their unpaid beta testers, which is absolutely unacceptable to me, unless someone has clearly agreed to be a tester; this is not the case, because Microsoft has never clearly stated that if you are a “home” or “pro” user, you are a tester. But that is how they are treating “home” and “pro” users.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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Cybertooth, WildBill

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MrPhelps I agree with what you said. MS has changed from the days of Gates and Balmer.  People are getting faulty updates and pushed to windows 10. But I would like to clarify various words. Others here (PK, Noel) please join in and help me if I am wrong.

A rollup use to be a set of new updates “rolled up” into one. But MS has changed definitions and a “Monthly Rollup” is a cumulative rollup of all previous patches (for maybe a year because they grow so large).

Bricked. People seem to be using this work constantly for something that is simply broken and then later fixed. When something is “Bricked” that means it is ruined, can not be fixed and is a “brick” now, basically a paperweight or a door-stop, and useless. To have a computer broken, then repaired by a system restore, or a few commands in the command line mode, or putting in a CD and repairing the system, or you may not have the expertise to fix the computer, so you call a technician and they repair it and now it is running again is repaired.  YOU may not be able to repair it, and think it is ruined but another person can repair it, then it was NOT BRICKED.

If your car did not start because the battery was dead,  it is not a bricked car. You replace the battery and now it is running again. “It needed a new battery” it was not bricked.

Bricked seems to be a new word people use to add sensationalism to their story that “an update harmed my computer and I had to fix it and I am mad.”

 

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Whether a computer is totally bricked or not may depend on the technical expertise of the person using it. Back when GWX was ‘bricking’ computers of friends, I was able to reinstall the original operating system for them… but their computer was useless as far as they were concerned, until restored. Also, having an operating system repeatedly update and wipe out my settings, change where I find things, place apps I didn’t want or ask for, or deliver advertising, essentially renders it useless for my purposes, without a lot of work… and if it requires too much work (and W10 does, for this non-techy or people requiring adaptive features and apps)… it is a brick… a prettier brick, maybe… but, actually, less useful and more intrusive than a brick doorstop.

Non-techy Win 10 Pro and Linux Mint experimenter

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My 80-year-old father-in-law’s computer was “bricked” by the Windows 10 upgrade, because it was working before the upgrade, and now it is not, and HE is incapable of fixing it. In order to use that computer, he will need to either pay someone to try to fix it, or he will need to find someone who will try to fix it for free (i.e. me). Since it is an old computer, he has decided that it isn’t worth fixing. That’s why I say that it was “bricked”.

You are welcome to split hairs here and say that we haven’t determined whether or not it can be fixed; but from his perspective, it is “bricked”.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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Elly

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The ‘official’ last word on ‘brick’ … 😉

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brick_(electronics)

Windows 10 Pro 22H2

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Elly

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PKCano wrote:

Question: For those of us sitting on Win10 1703, who are lucky enough to have the PRO version…. We can delay “feature updates” (upgrades) for 365 days. When does our time run out and we get forced with the still-Beta version of Win10 1709? Or do we get rolled directly into v1803 if it’s released before v1709 is stable?

Windows 10 1709 is not beta.  It was released last year.  My advice is to upgrade, upgrade, upgrade.  Keep moving forward, and never look back.  Windows 10 is getting to be really amazing, and the improvements are phenomenal.

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dhjohns wrote:

Windows 10 is getting to be really amazing, and the improvements are phenomenal.

Oh please, please, please, name ONE improvement that you’d call “phenomenal”.

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Cybertooth, dononline, Karlston

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Amazing, but only if you mean it in the “it’s amazing that Microsoft would think this is a release-worthy product.”

1709 is still quite clearly beta quality even as we approach the next unwanted update’s impending release, and it’s still in beta testing (being inflicted upon the hapless end users who can’t or don’t know how to block the update).  It’s a beta in everything except its name.

I don’t know why you’re cheerleading Windows 10, but even its fans (like Ed Bott) recognize that there are some real problems with Microsoft’s incredibly hostile attitude as well as with the product itself.  It would take some major, major changes in Windows, in Microsoft’s procedures, and in the update policy before it would even approach something I’d want.

Part of me, despite all evidence to the contrary, still holds a tiny bit of hope that MS will realize how bad all of this is and reverse course.  I’m already planning my exit to Linux (using it to write this response now) full-time, but even while I recognize the advantages of FOSS software, part of me is still reluctant to pull the trigger on leaving Microsoft-land for good.  I will, though, do just that if the current Windows offerings don’t get a whole lot better before 2023.  Hope for the best, plan for the worst, right?

Dell XPS 13/9310, i5-1135G7/16GB, KDE Neon 6.2
XPG Xenia 15, i7-9750H/32GB & GTX1660ti, Kubuntu 24.04
Acer Swift Go 14, i5-1335U/16GB, Kubuntu 24.04 (and Win 11)

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Elly, johnf, David F, Cybertooth, Karlston

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Hello Ascaris,  Hear! Hear! Very well put. I too have the tiny bit of hope, but…

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Ascaris wrote:

I’m already planning my exit to Linux (using it to write this response now) full-time, but even while I recognize the advantages of FOSS software, part of me is still reluctant to pull the trigger on leaving Microsoft-land for good.

Ascaris, you don’t have to leave Microsoft-land for good. Have you considered installing VMWare Workstation Player on your Linux box, and then installing Windows 8.1 in a VM? Doing this will motivate you to do your best to get everything you need working in Linux, while having Windows right there whenever you need it. And as you get more and more things working in Linux, you will one day come to the point where you will KNOW you are ready for 2023, where you will KNOW that you won’t even notice when 2023 arrives.

This is what I have done, and quite frankly, it feels really good to be firmly in the Linux world whenever I am on my home computer, with Windows being only the step-child, not the main event. (I really enjoy saying that!)

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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Elly

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Windows 10 would be a whole lot better if they would slow down the upgrades to once a year at best. Maybe do some app upgrades like Edge, mail and such. But try and get a version stable for a lot longer then it is now. Here we are close to a Spring release (cringe).

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WildBill, Karlston, Elly

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>Windows 10 would be a whole lot better if they would slow down the upgrades to once a year at best.

Or heck every 2 to 3 years. But wait, we HAD that before Windows 10 didn’t we? Service Packs and new versions of Windows.

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Just limp on…

In some 30 days your troubles are over, as you’ll get a brand spanking new 1803!!

Ta-daa!

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@ Jan K

Yes, rinse, spin, wash and repeat every 6 months.

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The harsh truth is that Windows 10 is failing at satisfying its client… and Askwoody is one of the sites that protect us from Window’s bugs.

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Elly, WildBill

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Going by this thread and many others from many websites, 1709 has more problems than previous builds. Is 1703 better than 1607? Is there any proven way to avoid forced upgrade from either to 1709?

Possibly unimportant details:

I was dual booting 7(home) and 10(pro) for a while (trial run, separate drives) but needed the SSD Win10 was on to upgrade another PC. I think I was using 10.1607, that’s what I burned to DVD. It worked just fine but was superfluous. I have plenty of room on the C drive for dual boot on one drive, but would like advice on the most currently stable Win 10 release. I might put Ubuntu and/or Mint on there too, but after Win 10 install. The drive is already UEFI/GPT. My Win 7 is up to date and runs perfectly, but the hardware is too old for BIOS update/Spectre fix (and I don’t care).

If this post is deemed more appropriate for another forum section, I would understand. Hopefully this isn’t off topic here, someone else installing Windows 10 might want to know which release is safest (for now).

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Schnarph wrote:

Is 1703 better than 1607?

Not really – use whichever you want/prefer.

 

Schnarph wrote:

Is there any proven way to avoid forced upgrade from either to 1709?

If you use Pro version – just look a few posts above (Group Policy). If you use Home – metered connection should do the trick.

Schnarph wrote:

would like advice on the most currently stable Win 10 release.

My company is still at 1607, if that helps. The older, the better, probably.

 

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Schnarph, JohnW

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Thank you, that’s good enough advice for me. 1607 it is.

I could have sworn I was reading reports of those being forced from 1703 to 1709 even with the metered connection setting. I do have a Windows 10 pro key set to this PC so I will use the group policy setting(s), along with at least one 3rd party leash for Windows 10 (O&O ShutUp 10, etc).

Now to find a 1703 ISO, proactive preparation for 1607 EOL. There’s no reason to assume 1803 or whatever will be less buggy than 1709. From what I’ve read, upgrading release version via ISO(DVD/USB) is the safest way to avoid unwanted/buggy rollups.

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http://windowsiso.net/windows-10-iso/windows-10-anniversary-update-1607-download-build-14393-0/windows-10-anniversary-update-1607-iso-download-standard/

http://windowsiso.net/windows-10-iso/windows-10-creators-update-1703-download-build-15063/windows-10-creators-update-1703-iso-download-standard/

Just pick your flavour.

Fractal Design Pop Air * Thermaltake Toughpower GF3 750W * ASUS TUF GAMING B560M-PLUS * Intel Core i9-11900K * 4 x 8 GB G.Skill Aegis DDR4 3600 MHz CL16 * ASRock RX 6800 XT Phantom Gaming 16GB OC * XPG GAMMIX S70 BLADE 1TB * SanDisk Ultra 3D 1TB * Samsung EVO 840 250GB * DVD RW Lite-ON iHAS 124 * Windows 10 Pro 22H2 64-bit Insider * Windows 11 Pro Beta Insider

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Windows 1607 is fine, but I’ve already moved to a GNU/Linux distribution for other things.

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Was scouring the internet the other day for comments about how people don’t like what is going on at MS and found the following quote which seems to sum things up quite nicely

 

“Full Disclosure: I worked at M$ from 2014-2015.
MS has some very talented programmers. They’re not very common, but they exist. The problem is that the entire company is completely and totally focused on developing an absurd number of new features and products, giving them completely unrealistic deadlines, and then shipping software on those deadlines no matter how half-a**ed or buggy it is.
The idea is that everything is serviceable over the internet now, so they can just “fix it later”, except they never do. This perpetuates a duct-tape culture that refuses to actually fix problems and instead rewards teams that find ways to work around them. The talented programmers are stuck working on code that, at best, has to deal with multiple badly designed frameworks from other teams, or at worst work on code that is simply scrapped. New features are prioritized over all but the most system-critical bugs, and teams are never given any time to actually focus on improving their code. The only improvements that can happen must be snuck in while implementing new features.
As far as M$ is concerned, all code is s**t, and the only thing that matters is if it works well enough to be shown at a demo and shipped. Needless to say, I don’t work there anymore.”

Edit to remove HTML – cut/paste error

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Rick Corbett, Elly, Cybertooth, johnf, MrJimPhelps, MrBrian

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@ Rick59

M$ has to drum up and dream up new features for Win 10, in order to justify the upgrading of Win 10 every 6 months, so that M$ could charge enterprises for perpetual Software Assurance/Insurance premiums or subscriptions.

Also, it’s likely that consumers will find their 3 to 4 years old Win 10 computers can no longer be upgraded = have to buy new OEM Win 10 computers = like buying new iPhones every 2 to 3 years.

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Well there it is, but I wonder is any of them would have to fortitude to say such things now.

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Had the same problem! My MSI was working fine earlier this week. When I turned it on today, the mouse wasn’t working so I bought a new one. It still wasn’t working. I read this thread but couldn’t uninstall KB4074588. So I restored my Windows to the previous build. Five minutes later, my mouse is back!

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A few years ago, I would have installed any and all Windows updates (Windows 7) almost immediately after they were released on Patch Tuesday. There were no problems then.

No longer. From the end of 2014, it seems to me that the quality of Microsoft updates has been going steadily downhill. When I learned in 2015 that in addition to its privacy issues, Windows 10 would force updates and would not allow me to control updates in the same way as Windows 7 and 8.1, I immediately decided to reject it and avoid it for as long as possible.

It was also because of this decision that I made a significant hardware investment in the X99 platform, the last high end hardware platform to officially support Windows 7 and 8.1, both as a way to upgrade my existing machines and to avoid being forced to Windows 10.

Since then I have been watching the Windows 10 farce from a distance, staying away from it myself, except on one machine (since upgraded to Ryzen) where I installed Windows 10 1507 LTSB and 1607 LTSB for testing purposes. Problems caused by updates like this KB4074588 only convince me more that my decision to avoid Windows 10 for as long as possible is correct. I will stay on Windows 7 and then 8.1 at least until the end of support for 8.1 in 2023.

Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella said back in the beginning of 2015 “We want people to love Windows on a daily basis. We want to make Windows 10 the most loved version of Windows.” I think events since then have made more people, me included, hate, not love, Windows 10.

Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

4 users thanked author for this post.

Elly, Cybertooth, WildBill, johnf

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radosuaf wrote:

 

Schnarph wrote:

Is there any proven way to avoid forced upgrade from either to 1709?

If you use Pro version – just look a few posts above (Group Policy). If you use Home – metered connection should do the trick.

That’s exactly what I do, with Pro on the desktop and Home on the laptop.  Have consistently stayed at least one release behind Microsoft’s schedule that way.  Let others be my beta testers.  Have experienced NO major problems in 2 years of using Windows 10.  Best OS ever!

Windows 10 Pro 22H2

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I’m sure there are many people that don’t have issues. Unlike Apple, there are many variations of hardware, and many software companies that may or may not use quirks in the OS to get an edge on the competition. The users that don’t have issues are the lucky ones…their hardware (or combination of hardware, for example PC + Printer) isn’t triggering crashes. The unlucky ones are left to wondering what happened.

That is why Microsoft cutting their testing department is critical. Forcing average users to be beta testers (so MS can “fix” business installs of Windows Pro) is unacceptable. I use Linux Mint, and I know that Clem and his software developers go through an Alpha phase (only the Mint developers check for bugs), then a public beta (you’re warned that the new software is not for production use,  may have bugs, and to report those bugs to the Development team), and then a public release (bugs can still be reported).

That’s the way it should be; if user funded distros like Mint, Ubuntu, Fedora can do this, certainly Microsoft can. Windows 10 could be a fine OS, but it’s junk if updates to it are released without proper testing.

Oh, and why does MS insist on forced Telemetry? Is that an excuse to release junk and fix it when people complain? Perhaps Nadella should be putting us on the MS payroll if that’s the case, since we’re forced to do his testing.

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Elly, Cybertooth

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johnf: Good questions, all.

The one that is most egregious to me is the disbanding of their testing dept. If Microsoft wants to speed up updates, and force them onto Windows 10 users, the least they could do is to thoroughly test them before sending them down the pipeline. This means that they should have hired MORE testers, not let their testers go.

They save money in the short term by not having a testing dept. But in the long run, they are irreversibly damaging their reputation, which is going to cost them heavily in the not too distant future. In short, the cost to Microsoft will be the loss of their dominance on the corporate desktop. MAC is already making inroads — for example, IBM gives their own employees the option of having Windows or MAC as their work computer; and they have found that a MAC is cheaper to support. And since IBM provides IT services to large corporations, they are surely presenting MAC as a viable, CHEAPER option for the corporate desktop than Windows.

Microsoft unseated a lot of great companies on their way to the top. I guess the day was inevitable that Microsoft would fall from their position as king of the hill; but I never thought that their fall would be self-inflicted.

Group "L" (Linux Mint)
with Windows 10 running in a remote session on my file server

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AlexEiffel

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Tim Cook just said they would release less new features and focus on quality for the next IOS versions. I think there might be a source of inspiration there from a company issuing “only” one big release per year?

At least some gets the message. IOS 11 has been terribly buggy and they realize it.

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Alex, you are right. If MS would focus on making a more reliable and stable product and stop with the new features, Windows 10 would be more accepted. -Also cut back on the telemetry-

I was beta testing firefox for years, but all they wanted apparently was to make a new feature not make it more stable and perform well so I stopped beta testing.

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I asked Woody via Facebook:  So how do we get USB ports working if the update installs?  I have Home version and it is waiting for me to reboot.  I haven’t done it for several days, gonna have to sometime.  But I rely on USB wireless mouse.

He replied not to reboot but to wait for the next update due any time.  Turn off Automatic Update and set up metered connection.  I finally found my instructions and found how to turn on metered connection.  I ran wushowhide yesterday and the 4074588 that had partially installed but was waiting for reboot is supposedly hidden and thus on hold now.

I presume I still do not reboot my laptop and wait for a good update to come through the pike?  I also presume that the good update will have “notice” on the askwoody site?

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Most definitely the people here are waiting for the KB to fix the USB problem and will publish  it when it happens. Stay tuned.

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