Your opinion please: Has Windows 8 anything to offer this desktop user?

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Moderately tech-savy, I’ve jumped at every new thing as quickly as I could find a beta. Installing and running Win 95 for the first time was a high I still remember. I went back and forth to Linux (numerous distros) a dozen times during the XP (and Vista) eras, but have frankly never seen the need since Windows 7 came out. My wife and I have a couple of desktops and laptops on our home network, no touch screens nor Windows-eligible tablets. We use them for internet browsing, mild photo and home video editing, and the simplest of games, nothing fancy.

Question: I’d jump at the chance to install Windows 8 if I could see any reason at all to do so. Does Windows 8 have ANYTHING to offer that we do not now have with Windows 7?

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I don’t think that there is anything at the moment that would be compelling enough, at least for me, to move to Windows 8 from 7, at least not at this stage.
Obviously the OS is still in beta, albeit in advanced form, so there will be plenty of time to have it looked at by all sorts of people eager and willing
to take it appart and sust-out all it’s workings.

Of course, you may want to install it on just one of your computers when it comes out and see if it offers anything over and above what you have now.

The Metro and the up and comming MS application store will be the thing to take a “wait & see” approach to imo.

Begin to form your own opinion based on what is available in pre-release.

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If you are completely happy with Win 7, then perhaps not! Just being honest. I (even though it would be very difficult to tell for sure with many of my recent posts) am not completely sold on Win 8!

What I would prefer to say is don’t take what you read about Win 8, either positive or negative, as the only determining factor. Be fair to yourself and test drive this beta OS. If you were considering a new car you would perhaps research the models you would like to consider, but ultimately what determines which model you buy? If you are anything like me, it’s ultimately the test drive, and then the deal you get.

Be fair to yourself and test drive this beta OS. I am not senile and repeating myself. I am repeating myself because that is truly the only way to see if you will like it. Do your research, read all about it, read through the various threads presently here and in other Forums. Do NOT take anyone’s word for it, test it for yourself. Set up a dual boot with your present Win 7. Install the OS and apps you use and try it for a couple of months. Customize it to make it work the way you want it to work. There have been so many threads on how to accomplish various things in Win 8 that I will not repeat them here. There have been many discussions on the features.

I guess the last thing to say is take this OS for a spin to form your own opinion. Many people have been converted to believers with a fair test drive!

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I don’t see anything that exciting to make me switch from Windows 7. Just a very small speed increase and a little faster boot time is about all. I could care less about the whole Metro and apps stuff.
Joe

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If you want to look at Metro as something to put aside, at least for a while, I would say Windows 8 is an optimized Windows 7, when used from the desktop. Probably there are no killer features, but there are some features that can be seen as rather interesting. I would probably choose 3:

1. The refresh / reset options, which will most likely eliminate the need for Windows reinstalls. Refresh allows you to set your machine to the most recent refresh point, no loss of personal data files or metro apps (all desktop apps and drivers added after the refresh point will need to be added). Reset allows you to get back to a pristine installation, but here everything is wiped clean, including user docs and accounts).

2. Storage Spaces – this is a feature similar to something that had been offered in Windows Home Server. It allows you to create a storage pool, made up of two or more drives. You can add or remove drives to increase the available space, or replace a drive that has failed. It also allows you to use mirroring in such a pool, providing automatic hardware redundancy.

3. Hiper-V replaces virtual PC. Hiper-V is a much more capable virtualization tool and Windows 8 users will get the same version that will be offered in Windows Server. This may not be much relevant to regular users, but for anyone who needs to use virtual machines, it will be a huge improvement. This feature has specific requirements in terms of the CPU feature set needed, so won’t be available to all existing Windows 7 running PCs.

Are these reasons to upgrade the OS while not upgrading your hardware? In most situations, no. But these and many other features are a reason not to avoid upgrading, when your upgrade time occurs “naturally”, specifically when you buy a new computer.

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Drew’s list covers it well. I think for those of us who love technology there are a lot of things that make us want to jump on board when it is available. Even some of the small improvements are welcome and may make it worthwhile to upgrade. But for most people, the cost and effort may not be worthwhile, even for the casual techie. I don’t think these types of users are going to see a lot of tangible differences. The real benefits are going to be more noticed by tablet users and corporate IT departments.

EDIT: I think I may have found a compelling reason…

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Price no longer a consideration for me!

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I believe the Hyper-V is dependent on the chipset so it may not work on all installs. And won’t you still need an install disk and valid COA for it?
Joe

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I believe the Hyper-V is dependent on the chipset so it may not work on all installs. And won’t you still need an install disk and valid COA for it?
Joe

Hyper-V requires your CPU to be one of recent generations, that support SLAT, which most older CPUs (even most Core 2 Duo) won’t (as I said above). You just need to enable the feature in the control panel. Also, it will run only in 64 bit Windows versions.

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Chuck, I have been saying my decision on Win 8 will be based on price. If this is indeed correct, Win 8 Pro, here I come! Thanks. And this pricing structure includes the Media Center at no additional cost.

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Yes you can. (I do know exactly what you are talking about) The article in question tells exactly how to Custom (Clean) install by inserting the DVD, booting to it, and wait until asked to Format the HD. They do suggest not to Format the HD ahead of time, but do it during the install. This does allow an Upgrade from an existing OS to Win 8 Pro using a Clean Install while formatting the HD. I will do this method ad I believe I get a more pristine installation by not trying to upgrade from one OS to the next.

As always make a complete Image before starting the Win 8 Pro installation.

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One other thing I’ve noticed about Windows 8 which I really like. Its handling of file transfers is many steps beyond Windows 7. You can make multiple transfers of multiple files among multiple partitions and devices, and you see progress as stacked graphs with lots of details to inform you.

I use two esternal HDDs per Windows OS (six in all) for my computers. And partitions fro data archives and System Image archives. So it makes a lot of sense to me to be able tom manage multiple transfers simultaneously. It saves a LOT of time when copying the results of recent backups and data file updates.

I’m not a fan of syncing nor online backup or filesharing, so I use my own local “sneakernet” as described. I’m also not a fan or virtualization, so I dual-boot. I guess I’m just old-fashioned in those ways. And Windows 8 (desktop mostly, not Metro) suits my needs just fine.

Old drivers and hardware work great in Windows 8 so far, and this is another reason why I would have no reluctance to use Windows 8 as a second OS while still saving Windows 7 for productivity applications, where its desktop works for me better than the Win 8 “legacy desktop” with no Start Menu. Now if the Win 8 Pro System Builder Edition would have a good price deal, I just might go for it.

So why not go for an upgrade over Win 7 HP? Same reason I just rebuilt Win XP Pro on my older laptop — there’s still some work which gets done more efficiently in the older interfaces. In 2014 I’ll have to decide about keeping Windows XP or converting to desktop Linux, but I wouldn’t worry about anything that far in the future with such old hardware.

And I had the foresight to create every kind of backup and OEM reinstall hard-copy I could for Win XP and Win 7 (including all my current drivers), so I still have all the disks and all the SPs on disks. System Builder should allow similar hard-copy restore disks.

Sure beats having to redo the DLs from MS Updates!

-- rc primak

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I’m going to stay with Windows 7. I know that I can’t stay with it forever, I found that out with Windows 2000, but maybe I can hang in there for a few years, and then either I will like Windows 9, or I’ll go to Linux. Or who knows, maybe by then Andriod will have grown into a laptop/desktop operating system.

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I’m going to stay with Windows 7. I know that I can’t stay with it forever, I found that out with Windows 2000, but maybe I can hang in there for a few years, and then either I will like Windows 9, or I’ll go to Linux. Or who knows, maybe by then Andriod will have grown into a laptop/desktop operating system.

Well, there may be good reasons why you’re no longer using Win2K, but I still use it for most activities: behind a hardware router/firewall, using an excellent anti-malware product with good HIPS heuristics that still updates its virus signatures (AntiVir Free in my case), an older but still eminently effective software firewall (Online Armor 3.1.0.26), and a reasonably up-to-date browser (Firefox 12), it’s about as secure as anything else, and if you’re still uneasy places like msfn.org provide access to continuing security (and other) updates/enhancements.

XP is my second choice, Win7 a distant third (at least when sticking within the Windows menagerie). At $39.99 I’ll probably spring for an upgrade copy of Win8 just in case there’s ever something I need it for, but that’s the only reason.

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Well, there may be good reasons why you’re no longer using Win2K, but I still use it for most activities: behind a hardware router/firewall, using an excellent anti-malware product with good HIPS heuristics that still updates its virus signatures (AntiVir Free in my case), an older but still eminently effective software firewall (Online Armor 3.1.0.26), and a reasonably up-to-date browser (Firefox 12), it’s about as secure as anything else, and if you’re still uneasy places like msfn.org provide access to continuing security (and other) updates/enhancements.

XP is my second choice, Win7 a distant third (at least when sticking within the Windows menagerie). At $39.99 I’ll probably spring for an upgrade copy of Win8 just in case there’s ever something I need it for, but that’s the only reason.

I still have my most recent Windows 2000 Professional machine, an HP Compaq Evo with 2.4Ghz P4 processor. I could fire it up, but I’d have to connect a mouse, keyboard, monitor, and LAN cable. I’m just not motivated to do it. I like Windows 7 better. But the reason that I quit using it is that it got to where too much stuff I wanted to run could not be loaded on Windows 2000. I has AVG free anti-virus. It’s probably out of date, but I’m sure it could either be updated, or I could uninstall it and install something newer. Once again, I’m not motivated.

Windows 7 is my first choice and XP is my second choice, but, as anyone who uses it knows, since SP2, Vista is not as bad as it was. It’s really quite usable. Still there is no point in Vista, now that Windows 7 is out.

The upgrade may not work the way you think it does. The $39.99 offer is to download it when you buy it. For $69.99 you can get a DVD, but I’m not sure how long you can put off loading it, and still get it activated.

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I still have my most recent Windows 2000 Professional machine, an HP Compaq Evo with 2.4Ghz P4 processor. I could fire it up, but I’d have to connect a mouse, keyboard, monitor, and LAN cable. I’m just not motivated to do it. I like Windows 7 better.

Nothing wrong with preferring Win7 – it just wasn’t apparent from your previous statement, which seemed to suggest that you still wished you could use Win2K (and was what I was responding to).

But the reason that I quit using it is that it got to where too much stuff I wanted to run could not be loaded on Windows 2000.

That’s certainly a problem for me as well. msfn.org has some tweaks that will allow much of what will run on XP to run on Win2K as well, but I haven’t (yet) used them. Instead, I just multi-boot with XP and Win7 so that I can run things that won’t run on Win2K, and it’s turned out that I don’t have to reboot into XP or Win7 very often.

Running Win2K on modern hardware with 2 GB of RAM remains my preference: I like not having to defeat (or just live with) later ‘features’ that I don’t need or want, and it’s rock-solid (not to suggest that XP and Win7 aren’t as well).

The upgrade may not work the way you think it does. The $39.99 offer is to download it when you buy it. For $69.99 you can get a DVD, but I’m not sure how long you can put off loading it, and still get it activated.

From what the Microsoft blogs have said the $39.99 offer includes the ability to download the .iso and burn your own DVD, and if it works the same way the pre-release Win7 $50 upgrade promotion did there’s no time limit on when you can perform the upgrade (nor should there be: you’re supposedly purchasing the same upgrade package offered at retail, after all). There does, however, seem to be a time limit on when you can get WMP for free.

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From what I can tell, it’s all about the enterprise. The CIOs I talk to say that for all the drum beating, Apple products give them security nightmares. W8 is supposed to be the tablet solution for the enterprise. Arguements aside, only time will tell. This is the classic IT class war between “the beards” and the “blue suits” with the rest of us watching. I read somewhere that Apple feels that the federal government is just another customer. They don’t get it. The Federal government is an eco system that connects major corporations, state ane local governments. That’s a lot of folks. Apple does not get it. For myself, I’m going to wait until this shakes out before I spend $600+ on a device that may not even be a good boat anchor. Like many employees, I need to connect to office files more than I need to connect to music. My organization will not allow me to connect over a non secured connection. Thus an Apple product won’t be in my work device inventory. One person in my office is an iPad diehard but I told him that when his personnel record gets hacked, he’ll remember.

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Like many employees, I need to connect to office files more than I need to connect to music. My organization will not allow me to connect over a non secured connection. Thus an Apple product won’t be in my work device inventory. One person in my office is an iPad diehard but I told him that when his personnel record gets hacked, he’ll remember.

Why can’t an Apple product connect over a secured connection? An iPad has built-in VPN features:

Secure access to private corporate networks is available on iPad using established industry-standard VPN protocols. Users can easily connect to enterprise systems via the built-in VPN client or through third-party applications from Juniper, Cisco, and F5 Networks.
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Out of the box, iPad supports Cisco IPSec, L2TP over IPSec, and PPTP. If your organization supports one of these protocols, no additional network configuration or third-party applications are required to connect iPad to your VPN.[/I]

Additionally, iPad supports SSL VPN, enabling access to Juniper SA Series, Cisco ASA SSL VPN servers, and F5 Networks FirePass. Users simply download a VPN client application developed by Juniper or Cisco from the App Store to get started.

iPad in Business: [/COLOR][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/url]Virtual Private Networks [/url]( VPN)
Bruce[/COLOR][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
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I was maybe the last person on earth to switch to XP. I moved to it kicking and screaming and found that I loved it. I obviously skipped Vista and under threats from my family moved to W7 to avoid being strangled with my mouse cord… Now that I moved to W7, I it and wonder what took me so long. W8 seems to be nothing more than a response to the tablet market. Senior execs who are still amazed with their blackberries will live W8 on a tablet. I’m not there yet.

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There are a many improvements I wanted for Windows 8, e.g. increase control over default file locations, better Windows Explorer, better Media Player, remove things like My Documents and the Public Folder, and generally give more control to the user. Having Metro shoved in my face is the opposite of what I wanted. I wanted less clutter and more control. I want Windows to be in the background, not the foreground. Of course, Microsoft wants Windows to be in the foreground for its own competitive reasons. It’s just annoying that there are no easy alternatives.

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”Metro’ or the Start screen & whatever tiles one puts on it or leaves on it (OR NOT), is NOT shoved in anyone’s face! Not in the least!

No thanks to Microsoft if it isn’t; because, by default, it is.

Bruce

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Drew
It’s just an irritant to a lot of us even though we can customize the desktop and work around it. To me it’s just a useless piece of crap the only the thing left on mine is Desktop. I also recently added the new Classic Shell that bypasses Metro.
Joe

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OMG, rhetoric about the Win8 Start screen gets so tiring. And it gets so frustrating feeling like more & more words from myself & my colleagues have all been said, you would think, enough times… Ergo, to not waste more (words), will just simply say, “Metro’ or the Start screen & whatever tiles one puts on it or leaves on it (OR NOT), is NOT shoved in anyone’s face! Not in the least! Blows me away how there is or can be so much whinging over a screen that gets NO USE or does not need to be used OR having that silly screen wipe out any respect for the rest of the OS beyond it. As for clutter in Windows8… there is none.Drew

What amazes me is the whinging of the Windows 8 fan boys.

Metro UI is a phone and tablet interface. As long as it exists, it should be available to desktop users who think they like it, although I can’t understand why anyone who does not have a touch screen would want it. For other desktop users, it should not be shoved in our faces. Windows 8 should be defaulted to the Desktop UI for machines that don’t have touch screens.

As to the original question, “Has Windows 8 anything to offer this desktop user”, the answer is, if you don’t have a touch screen, no. If you like the Metro UI interface, okay, but if you don’t, you shouldn’t ever have to see it.

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The elephant in the room is that Microsoft is clearly betting on Metro as the app interface of the future. It allows them to support apps on multiple devices -Tablets, phone, and desktop/laptop. It could also provide an additional revenue stream via the App Store. Notice the the next version of Office has a Metro option. Perhaps someone will come up with a killer app but I haven’t seen a Metro app I like yet

Jerry

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Microsoft has never been able to do much in the phone and tablet markets. I don’t have a smart phone, or a Windows or Android tablet, so I’m not sure what Microsoft’s shortcomings are in those area, except that the Windows 7 tables cost more than laptops, but with the sucess of the iphone, android tablets, and the iPad, and the fall off in sales of desktops, Microsoft has come to believe that in the future they have to dominate these markets.

Microsoft’s track record can be looked at two ways. 1) their record of failure in phones and tablets does not give much hope of turning it around now. 2) their record of failing at first, but staying with it until they do succeed. But is Windows 8 their version 2.0 success, or their version 1.0 failure.

In the mean time they could have significant market share losses in laptops and desktops. What will the average desktop user think of it. Touchpad enabled Windows 8 laptops and desktops will be more expensive than Windows 7 laptops and desktops.

Many people are just not going to pay the touchscreen premium, and are going to wait for prices to come down, which I suppose they will eventually in a year or two.

Also, as we have seen here, some people will love it, and some people will hate it. What will the balance be. If it’s a 50/50 split, and the people who don’t like it vote with their wallets, it will be a terrible failure. More likely the split will be 25/25 love/hate, with 50% pretty much indifferent.

I will be watching in October with great interest.

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Drew,

I was just going by what I’ve read. People say you start doing something or other then it jumps to a metro screen. And there are comments like this: “You cannot disable the Metro theme like you could in developers preview.”

I might not be up to date on the details and I have not tried it yet. In all the reviews I’ve seen, I have yet to see a normal desktop screen image. Can you point to an article that shows a normal desktop screen for Windows 8? And can you point to an article that shows that you can stay in a Windows 7 kind of environment all day?

Cheers.

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Drew
The fuss will get worse once the public gets to see Metro and find out they can’t disable it. Yes it boots faster and is only slightly faster on my PC barely noticeable.
Joe

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Drew,

Hey man, legendary post! I like the clear applications list. I had a second sook already lined up, but you have given me pause. If you can permanently avoid Metro, then I actually feel motivated to play with Windows 8 now. The two things I like about it are the new Windows Explorer and the increased speed. I didn’t like the ribbon for Office 2007, but Office 2010 is okay because of the ability to customise it (but check out how many items are in the “Commands Not in the Ribbon”!). For Windows Explorer, which has much fewer commands, the ribbon makes sense. I want it just for the ability to show and hide hidden files and folders instantly, and to have the parent folder button!

I have two questions:

1. Is there a way to download W8 with a resume download option? I use a public time-limited wifi connection, so I would like to download it over a few days.
2. Is the Release Preview stable and reliable? Are there bug-fix updates? Can I use it for my main system? I mainly use Ableton music software, MS Office, and the internet. If not, I’d probably skip the hassle.

Cheers.

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Martin, Welcome to the Lounge.

There are several ways to go through Metro UI quickly to the Desktop UI.

1) Ensure the Desktop tile is in the upper left hand position on the Metro UI. When you enter your password, instead of tapping the Enter button, hold it down for a couple of seconds. Holding the Enter button after entering your password activates whichever tile is the upper left hand tile. If this is desktop, then voila, you go to the desktop. If this is IE then IE opens.

2) After entering your password, tap Enter, then as soon as the Metro UI opens, tap Enter again. Which ever tile is in the upper left hand tiles will activate. If that’s the Desktop tile then you will go to the Desktop UI.

3) Click the Desktop tile in the Metro UI

4) When on the Metro UI, click Win + D

5) Install Classic Shell. On the General Behavior tab, put a check mark in Skip Metro UI.

OK, so there are 5 easy ways to go to the Desktop UI.

I would also recommend looking at this threadfor a tutorial on first getting started with Win 8

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Question: I’d jump at the chance to install Windows 8 if I could see any reason at all to do so. Does Windows 8 have ANYTHING to offer that we do not now have with Windows 7?

It sure does Patrick.. A heap of frustration and a learning curve the size of Mount Everest.

At home, 3 Laptops (XP and Win 7) 3 Windows Desktops ( 2 x XP Pro, 1 x Win 7 Pro) 1 x beefed up 27″ iMAC purchased several months ago.

The latter and newest Windows 7 Pro machine at home was installed with Windows 8 at least 3 times – and formatted out after a week or so just as many times.

I work in IT Support and am the System Administrator of a large corporate organisation running 3 Windows Servers of various flavours. At work we’re all Windows XP Pro or Windows 7 Pro. I cut my computing teeth on an Amiga 500, have used IBM clones since the old 286 processors using things like DeskQview and OS2 to multi-task and have used and embraced all Windows incarnations since Win 3.11 – All that said, never in my life have I seen a Microsoft product I hated as much as I do Windows 8. I gave it three goes on a desktop, a couple of installs into Virtual machines and just can’t warm to it – it has NO redeeming features that I can find.

I’ve gone out of my way to bag the Release Candidates of this operating system to all my clients and told them to avoid it like the plague in all shapes and forms.

As I mentioned in another thread, I beleive Microsoft is committing Corporate suicide with Windows 8 – heck, it makes the likes of Windows ME and Windows Vista that I consider to be two of Microsoft’s biggest disasters seem like the most stable operating systems ever invented! lol.. :rolleyes:

I’ve just gone past 51 years old and I absolutely love and embrace new technology.. Windows 8? Microsoft have lost their minds.. if you want a MAC, just buy a MAC. Want to use swipe technology – get an IPad. In my view (and that of MANY of my peers) – Windows 8 is a piece of garbage that has zero redeeming features in its current form.

/rant

Cheers
🙂

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“learning curve the size of Mount Everest.”

I figured out the basics within 36 hours. Of course, I the deeper programming side might be harder – not sure about that side of it.

“NO redeeming features”

I’m really enjoying Windows 8. Speed of response and speed in getting where you want to go are greatly improved. File manager is greatly improved. Very pleasant graphics. I hated Vista and Office 2007, and I expected to hate Windows 8, so I’m no MS fanboy. Overall, W8 is fresh and snappy, and I reckon it’s an obvious upgrade choice at $40.

I keep finding improvements. Just now, I’m discovering that Firefox seems to be smoother. The overall experience is just more pleasant and modern. It’s the biggest speed improvement I’ve experienced over the last 17 years. New operating systems all claim greater speed, but this one is really doing it. It’s better than buying a new computer!

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I think it is time to make a calm reminder of the need respect to Lounge rules: http://windowssecrets.com/forums/faq.php?faq=rules_vision#flames.

We can all get passionate about certain issues, but let’s stick to facts and not label others or their opinions, in order to have a valid discussion of Windows 8 or any other issues.

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What Learning Curve???

In 30 minutes I can customize Win 8 and teach the basics to anyone, even my 81 year old mother. Heck, just reading through this one threadwill be a great start toward calming the uproar when Win 8 is booted the first time.

There was a huge uproar when Win 95 was released. “What is it with this stupid Start Button thingy?” and “Why do I need to use some stupid rodent type thingy?” Remember those days. There was a learning curve. And we had to learn a much less stable OS than in this still in beta OS.

MS has made the decision to combine OS’s in various devices into one OS. What a brilliant plan! No need to support different OS’s across various platforms. Perhaps if others used that same philosophy there could be more standardization.

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Opinions are opinions, as long as they stick to the OS, it will be the members who need to decide what to consider or respect. Go for the opinion, show it wrong, but do not label it or the poster, in a way not allowed by the rules. Several posts that failed this criterium were “moderated” this morning. If you want to discuss it, you can PM me. The thread should be left to address the topic subject and the topic subject only.

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Hi Martin,

1st, thanks for the compliment.

1. My RP did not come from the public site. I’m actually not certain if ‘resume’ ability exists when DLing from there. However, not knowing the duration of your connection, it might not be an issue since the ISO does not take very long to DL; only a few mins. w/ a connection of reasonable speed.

2. Is the Release Preview stable and reliable? YES Are there bug-fix updates? YES, in so much that the RP is receiving Updates on Patch Tuesday. But, the RP does not have heaps of ‘bugs’ in it, anyway. Can I use it for my main system? Well, yes & no… it is, currently, beta (until RTM & GA) so, in that sense, no; You can use it as if it’s your main but, DO NOT drop Win7, as your main, until you have a solid non-beta of Win8 in place. I am dual-booting & using Win8 like it is a “main” OS but, still, have 7 as my actual prime OS… do not treat a beta OS as ‘main’ or only OS. I mainly use Ableton music software, MS Office, and the internet. That’s fine If not, I’d probably skip the hassle.

Cheers,
Drew

Drew, et.al.

First of all I agree with you completely about Windows 8 based upon the Release Preview.

For those wanting to find their own “truth” about the Release Preview of Windows 8, I suggest that rather than doing a dual boot with Win 7, download it and run it as a .VHD to do your investigating. This avoids any interference or chance screwups (technical term for dumb fingers) with your working Win 7.

Google for Windows 8 vhd if you are not familiar with this technology. I run these on 5 year-old Core 2 Duo machines with no problem.

So go play with Win 8 and find your own truth and then you can make the decision that fits you. Good Luck!

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(1) I like a dual-boot. I can blow away Win 8 RP anytime it acts up and still have Win 7 to work with, safe and intact. VHD probably would also be pretty safe, but dual-boot is what I’m experienced with, and I know it works for me safely.

(2) For getting a D/L of Win 8 RP or the upcoming RTM, there’s the Microsoft Upgrade Advisor. You can simply evaluate your system’s readiness and stop there. Or you can begin the installer download, which is half the size of the full ISO download. And you can pause and resume or resume if anything interrupts the Advisor’s installer download, at any time. Even shut down and resume later. Once obtained, the D/L can be saved as ISO, or saved to USB stick for installation on a different partition, drive or device. The Advisor is a multifunctional tool which I have found very handy.

(3) I have posted in several threads the advantages of Windows 8 over Windows 7. In this thread (Page 1, #14) I posted about file handling, as have several other contributors. Booting can be faster, and resuming from hybrid sleep can save battery and is very fast. I also added my laptop’s true Hibernate function through the Control Panel. And the various Restore and Reset features can avoid a reinstall, although I still prefer to just blow away the OS and restore from my Macrium Reflect WinPE Rescue CD. (That’s an Image Backup program, in case anyone’s new around here.) Even the Live Tiles in Metro can give me a brief news and weather update, as well as a calendar which is not a gadget.

We can talk all day and all night about what’s wrong with Windows 8 (and there’s plenty to talk about). But in the balance, I am seeing an emerging OS version which while not what I would want if I designed it myself, may prove possible to use productively. Mostly from the Legacy Desktop. And with Win-32 applications (x86/x64). And a real web browser with real controls and real plugins. And all the contents of my Desktop pinned to the Taskbar as a single jump-list type of item. Same with All Apps. No need to “peek” to see the real desktop. And many other fine-tuning improvements (tweaks).

-- rc primak

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I am especially impressed by the compatibility of RP with old Win32 programs like Office 97!

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I am especially impressed by the compatibility of RP with old Win32 programs like Office 97!

And an impressive compatibility mode for some older printers and scanners which don’t even have Windows 7 drivers, let alone specific Windows 8 drivers.

-- rc primak

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Unfortunately, there are so many devices on the market that no single OS, even a very polished beta OS such as Win 8 RP, can include everything. The driver data base is impressive in Win 8 RP, but as any other OS, does not include all drivers for all devices. As time goes on device manufacturer’s will develop Win 8 specific drivers if they wish to continue having their devices used in this fine OS.

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Unfortunately, there are so many devices on the market that no single OS, even a very polished beta OS such as Win 8 RP, can include everything. The driver data base is impressive in Win 8 RP, but as any other OS, does not include all drivers for all devices. As time goes on device manufacturer’s will develop Win 8 specific drivers if they wish to continue having their devices used in this fine OS.

Let me clarify:
In Windows 8 for the first time I can recall, older legacy drivers often work without any updates. That type of compatibility is a real selling point for Windows 8. At first, my NVidia subsystem was not supported by an official Windows 8 driver. But the Windows 7 WHQL certified Verde series drivers worked very well. With printers and scanners, there’s even a special compatibility mode made just for these devices. So if, say HP doesn’t update the drivers for a Windows XP compatible scanner, most of its functionality can be accessed in many cases in “Printer” Compatibility Mode or Driver Compatibility Mode. Not every time, but more often than in Windows 7. (It’s a Windows quirk that some Scanner drivers are treated as “Printer” drivers. I say this based on personal experience with a few scanners.)

So no, in many cases it has not been necessary to have Windows 8 specific drivers to use peripherals or onboard devices in Windows 8 DP through RP.

The Epson download site does not even detect Windows 8 yet, but I’d be willing to wager that their Windows 7 drivers would work perfectly well as Windows 8 legacy drivers. Maybe a few glitches, but generally compatible. I’ll test this with my all in one sometime soon.

-- rc primak

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“learning curve the size of Mount Everest.”

I figured out the basics within 36 hours.

..and you don’t consider 36 hours to figure out the basics excessive? lol..

I’m assuming here you’re an experienced computer user and have tried other operating systems like MACs? Compare your Windows 8 learning curve to jumping from XP (or Vista) to Windows 7 – even only moderately experienced Windows users could figure their way around in less than 36 minutes after a default install, never mind hours.

The change(s) in Windows 8 are way too radical to be embraced by the general computer using public in my opinion – and it’s certainly miles away from being an acceptable operating system in a business environment where learning curves and training to employees can cost huge amounts of dollars to an employer – and for what gain? Pretty screens, headaches for System Administrators and the ability to use touch screens that will probably never be used in the average business environment? I just don’t see any benefit to Microsoft’s biggest money spinners, and that would have to be the business sector(s).

As for home users.. well, apart from perhaps a fun factor in the ability to to be able to use Windows with touch screen swipe technology similar to an IPad, I honestly don’t see any benefits for the average home user either.

I’m really enjoying Windows 8. Speed of response and speed in getting where you want to go are greatly improved.

That’s great.. From my experience and dealing with many corporate clients however, I think I can confidently say that you will almost certainly be in the minority with your enjoyment of the Radical Change(s) Windows 8 introduces after a default install. Even demonstration video’s presented by Microsoft representatives to promote the operating system that can be found on YouTube are enough to put people off even wanting to try it.

Soon after Vista came out, the company I work with made thousands formatting the thing out for clients and re-installing XP for them. I predict the same scenario for Windows 8 – in spades!

It’s better than buying a new computer!

I’m glad you’re finding such a positive experience with it. Hope that never changes for you 🙂

What Learning Curve???

In 30 minutes I can customize Win 8 and teach the basics to anyone

Ok, but in less than 5 minutes, most people (professionals and average Joe users alike) could just go ahead and use previous major Windows re-writes / upgrades after a default install with no requirement for configuration changes or having to be taught the basics. The “basics” stayed the same. That may not mean a lot to some, but to most, it will. I’m certainly not against change – never have been, but to go from what the world is used to using, to what Windows 8 is at the moment, is just suicide on Microsoft’s part in my opinion. It’s just too radical a change, for little or no real productivity benefit. If there was ever a time to purchase shares in Macintosh, the pending release of pre-installed Wndows 8 machines is it imo.. :D:

Makes, me, an IT Pro, a wee bit sick to my stomach.

Really? As a fellow IT professional who’s been in the game for well over 15 years now, I think you seriously need to learn how to chill out and accept that not everyone will share your opinion(s) Drew. You should have a browse through Microsoft’s Technet’s forums sometime.. you’ll be amazed at how even highly qualified Microsoft Certified Engineers bag the heck out of Microsoft’s creations at times. :P:

IF he hates it so much, why the hell come here talking about it.

Isn’t this called a Windows Lounge and not a Windows Fan Club where nothing but positives are allowed to be said..?

At least that’s my understanding after reading the forum’s rules for posting here.. and no, I’m not here to troll. I’m dead serious and firmly stand behind every word I’ve written about this topic.. and not just here I can assure you.

Of course it’s always possible that I’m incorrect about the forum’s purpose – if that’s the case, please feel free to point out which of the lounges rule(s) I’ve broken.. or even gone against the spirit of the forum.

I’ve been lurking around here (in particularly the threads that are highlighted in the paid version of Windows Secrets edition that I’ve subscribed to long before Fred Langa stopped his Langalist newsletter, which I also had a paid subscription to for years).

I’ve not felt passionate enough about anything (or motivated to contribute anything) until I saw the OP’s post asking about the benefits of Windows 8 – As I see no benefits (quite the contrary), then I felt compelled to give my opinion. I absolutely make no apologies for that.

While I happily accept you may not share my views about the “usefulness” or “useability” of Windows 8, they are my views and I’ve made them public in many ways. Though I have no way of proving it, I can assure you that many people have verbally mirrored my opinion about Win 8 to me, using terms that I wouldn’t even think of repeating in what I consider to be a family rated forum. 🙂

Several posts that failed this criterium were “moderated” this morning.

Had I thought stating what I felt was the obvious about Microsoft’s latest operating system would cause the forums moderators work in having to delete posts, then I would have kept my opinions and thoughts to myself. So for that – (and only that) – I do apologise. I had no idea that people here could be so touchy to negative words being said about a pending operating system re-write. Anyhoo..

Cheers…

Andy

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Ok, but in less than 5 minutes, most people (professionals and average Joe users alike) could just go ahead and use previous major Windows re-writes / upgrades after a default install with no requirement for configuration changes or having to be taught the basics. The “basics” stayed the same. That may not mean a lot to some, but to most, it will. I’m certainly not against change – never have been, but to go from what the world is used to using, to what Windows 8 is at the moment, is just suicide on Microsoft’s part in my opinion. It’s just too radical a change, for little or no real productivity benefit. If there was ever a time to purchase shares in Macintosh, the pending release of pre-installed Wndows 8 machines is it imo.. :D:
Andy

The change from Win XP to Win 7 was major and did take most Average Joes much longer than 5 minutes. The total file structure changed and many professionals were unable to navigate through this without many frustrating attempts. Between the Libraries and Junction Points, people were lost for a while.

I set up Win 7 systems for many average Joes, and had to spend time showing differences and customizing to their needs. Training them in other words.

In my opinion there will be no difference with Win 8. Time will need to be taken to teach people how this OS works.

MS has taken a giant step in standardization with Win 8. This will be a standardized OS that will work across platforms. It will work equally well on phones, touch enabled tablets, and conventional PC’s. I am very surprised that Win 8 works so well on my laptops. I do spend almost 100% of my time on the Desktop and it has been very good. When I go back to Win 7, I am constantly saying, “Come on, do something!” Win 7 just feels slow and clunky.

Yes, the biggest hurdle will be those that buy new PC’s. The initial shock will be difficult. This will rely a little on those selling new PC’s to their customers. There is a rumor that the RTM will include an option to boot to the desktop. In my opinion MS would be smart to allow this.

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In my case as well. All devices I regularly use do work with the drivers presently available. My AMD graphics work fine with the default drivers. My Canon Pixma MP620 multifunction printer works fine with the Win 7 drivers and software. My Realtek audio works fine, and so forth.

There are many people asking about drivers in particular on the Win 8 Forums. Graphics was a problem, but with NVidia, AMD and Intel releasing Win 8 specific drivers this seems to have dies down. Audio drivers and specialized devices are still waiting in many cases.

I know Fred has been having a problem with his Verizon Air Card. Cannot connect from Win 8 to the internet. I suspect as we get closer to October, many of these devices will be offering updated drivers.

DrWho has stated his 2 Epson printers work very well with available drivers. It seems the HP printers are having the most problems in the printer category, but I would suspect that from HP.

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Had I thought stating what I felt was the obvious about Microsoft’s latest operating system would cause the forums moderators work in having to delete posts, then I would have kept my opinions and thoughts to myself. So for that – (

and only that) – I do apologise. I had no idea that people here could be so touchy to negative words being said about a pending operating system re-write. Anyhoo..

You should not worry and there is no need to apologize. You broke no rules. All opinions that are respectful to other members and that do not violate the rules, are allowed. This is the Windows Secrets Lounge, so our members are mostly users of Windows and other Microsoft technologies, but all opinions within the rules are allowed and should be debated within the requirements set by those rules.

That sometimes we need to moderate, goes with the job description. We will do it when it is required even though it would be preferable if it wasn’t needed. The Lounge is the place to discuss all Windows related issues and everybody is welcome to such discussions.

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Hate to say it folks, but this debate is getting old. Some are convinced that Win 8 is going to be a dire failure. Others think its going to be a massive success. The truth of the matter is probably somewhere in the middle.

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I agree, getting very old.

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Come back in about 3 years, I’ll let you know how it turned out. 🙂

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I have just swapped from the CP to the RP. I must say, I am seriously disappointed. There have been almost no improvements in the interface. It seems the CP was basically the final interface. Ouch. Much of my enthusiasm was premised on the idea that there would be significant tweaks to the interface – there sure needed to be! Anyway, I was so annoyed that I wrote a review. It’s probably too long for here, so I posted it on my blog: http://worldwidehappiness.blogspot.com.au/2012/07/review-of-windows-8-for-desktop-and.html

Drewski,

“and you don’t consider 36 hours to figure out the basics excessive?”

I wasn’t at it for 36 hours! I played with it and got tips from this forum over the first 36 hours of having the CP installed. I spent maybe 8 hours on it. But yes, even that is too long – unless there are so many wonderful improvements that you just love learning all the new benefits.

“The change(s) in Windows 8 are way too radical to be embraced by the general computer using public”

I think the changes can be easily fixed, but judging by the lack of change from CP to RP, those changes won’t be made. It really does feel like the interface has been designed for Tablets and Phones, and gives no benefit for Desktop or Laptop. There are other benefits, however, such as speed, visuals, freshness, and the file manager.

Doc Brown and Ted Myers,

“this debate is getting old”

The debate is getting old for you, maybe. I’ve only just started looking at Windows 8. Many others will just be starting to think about it. Saying that the debate is old might silence the debate, which is unhealthy. Just my opinion.

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Doc Brown and Ted Myers,

“this debate is getting old”

The debate is getting old for you, maybe. I’ve only just started looking at Windows 8. Many others will just be starting to think about it. Saying that the debate is old might silence the debate, which is unhealthy. Just my opinion.

An exchange of ideas is healthy. A back and forth about the good, the bad and the ugly is healthy. Staunchly keeping one’s feet in one place and never moving an inch is very unhealthy. That’s what’s old about this debate. People keep posting links to opinion piece articles to “prove” their stance. They are picking apart posts line by line to show someone else how wrong they are.

I will say though that you are one who seems to be keeping more of an open mind than others. Keep that going, because yes, that is healthy!

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In saying this discussion is getting old, I was just talking about this particular discussion, not the entire discussion of Win 8 RP, with the arguments and passionate responses toward each other. I enjoy discussions on the features of Win 8, but not necessarily opinion after opinion with nothing to substantiate those opinions. Just sprouting what others are saying without giving the OS a good test is not productive to the discussion in my opinion. If you are going to offer an opinion on a particular feature for example, test that feature in various ways, then tell us what you think.

Everything I have stated about this OS is based on months of use, and not based on turning the PC on, installing Win 8 RP, then deciding quickly I do not like it and uninstalling this OS. When I first installed Win 8 DP, and for the first couple of weeks, I was reluctant to stay here doing my thing. It was too different. Then I started figuring things out, started testing various things. Once I installed Win 8 CP I was starting to like this OS and spent 100% of my time working in Win 8 CP. There were some improvements when Win 8 RP was released, but most of these improvements were “under the hood”. The basic UI, both the Metro UI and the Desktop UI are essentially unchanged in the look and feel.

For example, people have a hard time finding out to do something as simple as shutting down the PC, so I posted several ways to add shortcuts to the desktop for doing these things. People will say you should not have to, but I did the same customizations to Win 7, so this was nothing out of the ordinary. It just made it quicker to do so, fewer clicks. Seems minor, but after enough repetitions this does save time.

One of the reasons I posted this threadwas to make this transition easier for those “Average Joe’s”. Once you get past this initial shock factor, you can make Win 8 work and look just like your Win 7, but then you get the faster performance, the better file management, the higher security, etc. that comes with Win 8.

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I think there is an important point that is often overlooked when dealing with change:

If an individual truly believes in something (good or bad) then it is as real to them as the earth than we walk on and the air that we breath. No amount of counter arguments, demonstration, cajoling, or explanations will alter their mind to a different point of view.

I think we have seen examples of this human trait on both sides of the debate. It’s something that I have mentioned in other posts when I consider how to support less experienced residential clients new to Windows 8. Do I argue black is white and risk losing a customer, or do accept that they have an issue and find an alternative solution that can work for them?

I’ll leave with two thoughts from either side of the Pennines, presented to you in the utterly British and quirky spirit of the opening ceromony of the London Olympics last night:

“There’s nowt so queer as folk”

and,

“Where there’s muck there’s brass“.

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Some of the big supporters of Windows 8 now should go back and reread some of their posts when they first tried it and found Metro. To a lot of people a PC is simply a tool and they aren’t into customizing and modifying them.
Joe

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MS admits that the system is for phones, tablets, and desktops. Therefore, it is not ideal for desktops. That’s logical. It’s like designing a car that is intended for family vacations, off-road travel, racing, and commuting. It’s impossible that it will be optimal for any of those.

For example, the start screen was created for tablets. It is the front-end for tablets. The charms bar is the back-end for tablets. So far, so good. But what about desktop computers? The desktop is the front end for desktop computers. The start screen is one back-end (although MS wants it to be the front-end). Then what is the charms bar? It’s the back-end of the back-end. And the control panel is another back-end. Yet there’s personalisation in the charms bar back-end, and a different kind of personalisation in the control panel back-end. And on it goes. Every time you mouse to the right of the screen, the tablet back-end appears. Why? Because that’s what you need for a Tablet. So you keep running into all these things that are obviously there for tablets. But you’re on a desktop.

W8 is a faster system, but it’s like we’ve been given a Ferrari with no headlights (= start button and its functions) and a caravan permanently attached to it. You can get a mechanic to fix the headlights or you can do it yourself if you have the skills, but it’s far from ideal. And every time you look in the rearview mirror, you see this stupid caravan attached, and it needs to be attached because some of the functionality of the Ferrari has been transferred into it.

It’s fine for Beta testers who have contact with MS to give calm positive feedback to MS, because MS might listen and let one tiny tweak through. But for others, complaining loudly is the only way to get the message across. That’s how nature works.

MS put Office 2007 out even though it was only half-baked. That suited MS because it could get customers to pay for the privilege of beta-testing for Office 2010 (which is still significantly flawed). Office 2007 suited the beginners, but not the advanced users. MS could get away with it because it was only one program. Windows 8 on the other hand is a whole operating system, so I don’t think they will get away with it. You will get some people loving it and some people hating it, and it will be a mish-mash. I can see the mocking ads from Apple already. MS will use this extended beta-test to tweak Windows for the desktop in 3 years time, or to do away with the desktop altogether. It’s an experiment and we are the guinea-pigs. People download the previews in the hope of getting some feedback through to MS. But MS isn’t looking for any fundamental feedback. They had already settled on all of it. They are just using us to tweak something they are totally committed to.

People say there’s no problem because you can stick with W7. That’s unfair. As a committed customer, you expect a business to maintain quality regularly. Three years is long enough to wait for an update. Six years is obviously too long.

People say that some people don’t like change. That’s not true in my case. I’m a futurist and I want huge improvements. Sticking a caravan on a Ferrari, or putting sports wheels on a campervan, isn’t an improvement.

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Interesting thread.
I don’t have any input other than when I need new hardware, the comments here give me things to consider and address when I do buy/build a new computer. Thanks.

If Win 8 can be configured to boot to a desktop, why is there concern that the computer manufacturers won’t configure desktop and laptops that way for the public and businesses?

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Jack, 31564-Welcome to the Lounge. Come back often.

The rumor is that MS may allow Win 8 to boot directly to the Desktop, but that is all it is at present. The thing is, even if that is not added, it is so easy to go to the Desktop that for me this is a non-issue. I previously posted at least 5 ways to get to the Desktop with one click or less. What is so hard with that? I just think the naysayers will latch onto any little tidbit to point out what is bad with Win 8 RP. If this is the best that they can come up with then everyone should think of this OS as their next OS IMO.

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Thanks Ted. 🙂

One point that always interests me concerns voice recognition.
I’ve gone from the early days of L&H to the present with Dragon Naturally Speaking, but the MS VR app has been a disappointment in Win 7.

Is it included-going to be included- in Win 8 and has anyone tried it?

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See if this Google searchanswers your question.

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“From what the Microsoft blogs have said the $39.99 offer includes the ability to download the .iso and burn your own DVD, and if it works the same way the pre-release Win7 $50 upgrade promotion did there’s no time limit on when you can perform the upgrade (nor should there be: you’re supposedly purchasing the same upgrade package offered at retail, after all). There does, however, seem to be a time limit on when you can get WMP for free.”

I should have looked it up before I said anything. I got it mixed up.

You can either download and “Install Now” or download and burn to an ISO and “Install Later”.

“After your download finishes, you can choose to proceed with the upgrade (“Install now”) or install later either from your desktop or by creating your own media. If you choose to create your own media, you will be able to create your own bootable USB or .ISO file which can be burned onto a DVD for upgrade and backup purposes. If you prefer, you also have the option of purchasing a backup DVD for $15 plus shipping and handling. ”

The 69.99 price is if you buy if from a retail store.

“If you prefer to shop at a local store, a packaged DVD version of the upgrade to Windows 8 Pro will be available for $69.99 during this promotion.”

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Though I continued to follow this interesting thread, I decided to bow out of contributing to the discussion for a while due to the apparent havoc that my initial statement(s) caused. Whilst a moderator kindly assured me that I’d broken no forum rules, nothing I’ve read here since my post has changed my opinion of Windows 8, so contributing further would have just been repeating what I’d already stated.

I remain convinced that Windows 8 will be amongst Microsoft’s biggest disasters – those being Millennium (Windows ME) the initial release of Vista, which did not become even remotely stable until after SP2 was released and the Microsoft Office “Ribbon” interface.

That said, perhaps I can clarify the reasons I feel so strongly about this, hopefully without raising too many folks blood pressures.

There is a rumor that the RTM will include an option to boot to the desktop. In my opinion MS would be
smart to allow this.

I’m pleased to see that even from a person who is clearly sitting on the opposite side of the fence to me about Windows 8, it’s remains possible to find ‘some’ common ground Ted. I agree entirely, apart from the fact that I believe MS would be even smarter to boot the operating system to a somewhat familiar desktop as default, after a default install. This presently isn’t the case and it doesn’t look like it’s going to change.

I say that because I have considerable experience dealing with people in the business sector. The simple fact of the matter is that they do not like radical changes – The people I dealt with absolutely hated Office 2007’s radical Ribbon Interface introduction, and after running a trial, most reverted back to Office 2003 and continue to use it to this day, along with the FileFormatConverter Microsoft released that I wish I had a dollar for every time I gave someone a link to, or went ahead and installed for them while on site.

Had Microsoft simply allowed an option to revert to a familiar interface when Office 2007 was released, or learned from their mistake with the release of 2010, sales of both Office 2007 and 2010 would have probably sky rocketed. In the company I look after, I take care of 22 workstations. The only machine in this office with 2010 on it is mine (as I provide external support, I’m forced to keep up to date), 1 has Office 2007 (transferred from my machine because it was required to be able to product certain graphical reports in Excel on one of the major software packages we use) but the rest of the workstations continue to run on 2003. I’ve been told in no uncertain terms that until it’s unavoidable, no one else wants the Ribbon Interface – and it’s been out how many years now?

For my own part, I got used to the Ribbon interface fairly quickly and though I continue to believe it’s nowhere near as functional as the old interface was, I’ve gotten that used to it now that I can get around doing most things I need quickly by using short cuts rather than need to keep reaching for the mouse all the time. But I digress..

I played with it and got tips from this forum over the first 36 hours of having the CP installed.
I spent maybe 8 hours on it. But yes, even that is too long

Precisely my point.. and you’re an experienced computer user. The vast majority of employees are not – they know how to use Word, Excel, the firms accounting package, how to research something on Google etc.. but re-configuring and tweaking an operating system that has been so radically changed to what they’ve been used to for so many years? Forget it.

It will be up to Systems Administrators to do that. I only have 22 workstations to worry about internally, but what of those poor Admins that might have 2200 to deploy to? Sure it can be automated, but at what time investment and then you need to consider dealing with the inevitable bugs that come with every major Software re-write. Those can’t be automated and the huge potential loss of productivity is something that can’t be ignored.

And what of the companies who outsource their IT Support requirements – are they willing to pay for the additional hours that will be involved in getting Windows 8 configured back to a way their employees can simply use it, or do you think they will opt to just stick with the status quo, despite the promises of a browser or software package opening a second or two faster?

You already know my prediction on that one. Both System Admins around the globe and small, medium and large company owners alike will reject this operating system as a bad joke being played on them – and thus why it is my belief that it’s doomed to fail.. Microsoft will likely persist, but I think it will take quite a few years before it’s finally accepted. I might have to have a copy in the office just to keep an eye on its progress, but the only external support I’ll offer for it is to format it out for those who might get caught out by blindly purchasing it with a new computer.

In the meantime.. Mac’s remain pretty easy to use, straight out of the box. I own one, so I know. I still prefer Windows.. but I mean Windows in its current form – not the disaster Microsoft are about to release on the world! Improve Windows 7 by all means.. I’m all for change and improvement – but don’t replace a glass to drink out of with a shoe and then expect me to like or embrace it. That’s just crazy! 🙂

I think the changes can be easily fixed, but judging by the lack of change from CP to RP, those
changes won’t be made.

Indeed.. and that is the biggest problem of all. Microsoft aren’t known for their willingness to listen to the masses once they’ve made up their minds about something.

Andy,

My feelings were not so much upset by what you say about the new OS but, as an IT Pro, it was what you sent out to your clients or that someone would do such a thing.

I did a very similar thing when Office 2007 appeared with its new ribbon interface. I predicted most would hate it and most did – and thanked me for the warnings. Some went ahead and upgraded anyway, their calls for help later on to revert them back to their previous versions caused no guilt feelings on my part when I invoiced them for my time.

I think the problem is that you and I are looking at this from two totally different perspectives Drew.. If I may be so bold as to suggest this, you’re looking at it on a very small scale – a change that will only affect users in a minor way… a small inconvenience. I’m looking at it from a much larger perspective. Though I understand some IT Pro’s might relish the idea of an injection to their workload with this pending release, I try to take the approach of helping people help themselves and saving them money. If I can do that by warning those who choose to trust me that “I believe” they’re in for serious troubles by purchasing Windows 8, then I make absolutely no apologies for doing exactly that.

Ergo, for not biting my tongue, I am sorry

I appreciate the sentiment, but it’s really not necessary. Forum moderation spared me having to read whatever was said that was objectionable, but I can assure you that even if that were not the case, I am quite thick skinned and would not have “bitten back” – more likely I would have just ignored anything I considered a personal attack about me rather than my opinion on the subject matter 🙂

Peace..

Andy

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I’m in a rush, so I’ll reply in more detail later. I just wanted to note that I’m having trouble getting through to my University’s wi-fi. The techs at the uni can’t do it either. One of them – a young smart Asian guy (sorry for stereotyping but they usually like the latest stuff and they are usually very smart) – couldn’t get through either. Also, he said he tried W8 but didn’t like the lack of a start button. His response was visceral. I actually prefer the start screen and you can put start button shortcuts there. What I dislike is the hotspots on the screen and charms vs control panel etc. So putting a start button in won’t satisfy me, but since that’s getting all the attention, that is what MS will probably address. I expect them to put it in, otherwise MS would be shooting themselves in the foot for no good reason.

I’ll start another thread about the wi-fi issue.

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I’m having trouble getting through to my University’s wi-fi. The techs at the uni can’t do it either.

Understandable and to be expected at these early stages to my mind Martin. The operating system is still in its infancy so there could be bugs with wifi connectivity and/or the lack of familiarity of the operating system by your Universities support techs. I enjoy an occasional punt so I’d put 2 bob each way on the latter if I could. 🙂

What I dislike is the hotspots on the screen and charms vs control panel etc.

You can rest assured you’re not alone on that front

putting a start button in won’t satisfy me, but since that’s getting all the attention, that is what MS will probably address. I expect them to put it in, otherwise MS would be shooting themselves in the foot for no good reason

Given Microsoft’s track record on how much weight they place on listening to what end users want, I wouldn’t be expecting them to make the Start button appear in a default install in the final release of Windows 8 either. “Our way or the highway.. don’t like it, then figure out how to do it the way you want to yourself” seems to be their motto.

In a similar example, it would have been a trivial matter for Microsoft programmers to provide users with a button to click on to revert back to a Menu interface in Office 2007 yet they didn’t do it, despite the tens of thousands of posts all over the web discussing various workarounds to achieve exactly that.. a quick check on Google shows people continue pleading for the functionality in Office 2010 as well. Third party software add-ons have been written to provide that option, but how well they work or what they cost I’ve no idea – never tried them. Microsoft seems to enjoy shooting themselves in the foot for some reason.

there are other contributors here who agree with you. Don’t let two or three people shout you down.

I thank you for the supportive words Prescott.

A bit of self-restraint on my part was purely a courtesy to the moderators and partly that I would have just been repeating myself anyway – I consider this forum to be one of the friendliest I lurk in, but when I believe I have something valid and of value to say, I’ll rarely hesitate to do so. I’ve never been known to be shy to share my thoughts so it would take more than a few disgruntled members to shut me up completely 🙂

Cheers…

Andy

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I am getting tired of members labeling other members. This is my final warning, on this thread, or other Windows 8 threads. Criticize the opinions, but do not label either the opinions or the members. I find the term “fan boy” highly offensive and it won’t be allowed. Anyone unable to conduct a civilized discussion, should stay out of the discussion.
From now on not only will the posts be removed, but penalties will be awarded to those in violation of Lounge rules.

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Many university IT depts. do not allow connection to their network in certain instances. My wife works in the IT department at a medium sized university. Since Win 8 is still in beta, it is not allowed to connect to their servers. I am not sure how they prevent it, but they do. Their IT dept. must fully vette new S/W before it is allowed, including released S/W. This practice has tightened up even further over the last year. Martin, perhaps this is part of your problem.

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Many university IT depts. do not allow connection to their network in certain instances … … … I am not sure how they prevent it, but they do

Depending on the Server software they’re running, it’s quite easy to prevent anything connecting up. Operating systems or entire PC’s. Same goes for Wifi connections to routers.

Even most (decent) home grade routers provide an ability to restrict connections to a Wifi connection only to white listed MAC addresses of Wireless Network Interface Cards. Entire PC’s can be blocked from servers using similar methodology. I’d expect the Tech’s Martin asked for help to pick up on that fairly quickly though, as you will more often than not establish a connection, but one that is so limited that nothing can be accessed, neither on the Wan or the Lan. Those symptoms (should) be a dead giveaway as to what the problem could be.

I hadn’t even considered Martin may have been talking about not being able to connect to the Uni’s Server via a WiFi connection though – to me his post indicated that he couldn’t connect to the Universities Wireless connection – not even getting as far as the server with a signal that did not connect with sufficient authentication to allow any meaningful access, thus pointing to either buggy Wifi implementation in Windows 8 on the authentication method being used, or a lack of experience with the operating system on the part of the Tech as I mentioned earlier.

He did mention he wrote his post in haste however, so I hope he does follow up on this here or in another thread as I’m now curious to what the problem turned out to be.

Cheers..

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In a hurry again, but I think I found the wireless solution, which I posted on that thread.

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Thanks for the feedback and comments regarding the wireless problem. The solution I posted in that wireless thread works only after successful connection to that network. Prior to connection, right-clicking the network has no effect. So I’m stuck. For more details, see that thread.

Drewski,

Without a start button and some other UI modifications, Win8 will be a disaster for the Corporate Desktop and for many Personal Desktop users. I think that’s obvious. But you can’t generalise to all Desktop users.

Like Office 2007, the Win8 UI is half-baked. This is obvious. It’s surprising because there are so many huge improvements otherwise, so why ruin all that with a UI that could easily be fixed through providing easy customisation upfront? Madness. The first rule of sales is “Don’t put obstacles in the way of the sale”. I think MS said they expect third party solutions, but that is adding an uncomfortable step to the sale.

Doc Brown,

I think the problem is that Drewski needs to clearly distinguish between Corporate Desktop and Personal Desktop. Applied to Corporate Desktop, I think his arguments are obviously true, and never moving an inch in the debate would be appropriate. However, for the Personal Desktop, it will depend on the individual.

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I think the problem is that Drewski needs to clearly distinguish between Corporate Desktop and Personal Desktop. Applied to Corporate Desktop, I think his arguments are obviously true, and never moving an inch in the debate would be appropriate. However, for the Personal Desktop, it will depend on the individual.

That’s a fair criticism which I take on board. You’re perfectly correct – my focus in all things to do with Windows is mainly to do with Corporate and working environments, because that’s where my bread has been buttered for a good part of my life now.

That said, I still believe there will be a lot of resentment to the operating system from a personal desktop standpoint as well.

I take myself as an example.. I’m usually the first to try new things out, yet even for home I’ve already decided that without some major modifications, Windows 8 will never have a place other than perhaps in a VM to play with from time to time as I learn more about the product. Not even for a measly price of $40 bucks – I’ll simply refuse to pay for what I consider to be garbage.

I also have a couple of kids (18 and 25 – still living at home and enjoying not having to pay any rent! ) who also embrace new technology, yet who also dismissed the product as too “clunky”. I’m fairly sure I already mentioned that my son described the Metro interface to be like a “poorly designed and dysfunctional IPad”. – That’s a comment coming from a kid who has always had access to the latest developments in personal computing technology. I know, because I have an aching wallet as proof! lol.. He loves Windows and has exploited it as a gaming platform in ways that even I didn’t think were possible.

Yes, I’m sure there will be some that will like it – Ted’s mostly positive comments about Windows 8 are testament to that, but I still believe that they will be amongst the minority. Only time will tell I guess, but in its current form, I’m still backing my own predictions on this one 🙂

Cheers..

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Re. Windows 8 needing specific drivers (or not):

My all in one is an Epson, and I have used their “Vista” driver in Windows 7. No reason to expect issues in Windows 8 either.

As for Mobile and Cell types of devices, I would expect more issues, as they need more than just driver compatibility. They require very specific Networking configurations in many cases. Not really simple plug-N-play devices.

The NVidia drivers are not specific to Windows 8. They also have improvements for Windows 7. Among these is support for DirectX v.11.

-- rc primak

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I have to admit that this thread seems to me to be going nowhere at this stage. I have better things to do than to try to “discuss” with people on both sides who seem to have their heels firmly dug in and are not likely to change their opinions.

I’ll just have to wait and see how businesses react to Windows 8 Pro or Enterprise Editions. And age-specific stereotypes are not helpful in my opinion.

For myself, I am using Windows 8 RP with no Start Menu, and I spend 95 percent of my time on the Legacy Desktop. I have placed into Windows 8 RP several portable and stand-alone programs for things like email and system performance monitoring. The one thing i’ll miss the most so far will be the Windows Gadgets Platform, which is dead as of the time of the Black Hat Conference.

I have posted before that due to my use of a lot of free software and beta versions, I’ve seen a lot of crazy-looking and barely functional Graphical User Interfaces. Metro is by no means the worst I’ve used. But it’s by no means the best, so I usually stick with the Legacy Desktop. It’s nice to have news and weather Apps, but for any productivity work, I’ll stay with the Legacy Desktop, thank you. Even without the Start Menu. And for tasks like email downloading and archiving, portable clients which aren’t even installed programs nor Apps (Pegasus Mail in its Roaming Mode) work perfectly well for me. Even system backup and recovery work best for me using WinPE “Rescue Media” CDs and USB hard drives, totally outside of Windows 8.

This is me stepping out of this thread now.

-- rc primak

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I couldn’t help but smile and feeling somewhat vindicated after all the flak I copped from some fellow IT Pro’s after I revealed that;

I’ve gone out of my way to bag the Release Candidates of this operating system to all my clients and told them to avoid it like the plague in all shapes and forms

..when I read the following concluding paragraph in Woody Leonhard’s Top Story of this week’s edition of Windows Secrets, where he also confirms Microsoft’s announcement that Windows 8 development is now final.

Frankly, unless Microsoft has some spectacular Metro apps up its sleeve — the current preview versions of Mail, Calendar, People, SkyDrive, and Photos are all horribly stunted; the Music and Video are laughable — I don’t see Windows 8 or Windows RT making it to the top of many holiday shopping lists. A year from now, things will be different. But you have to wonder how much more consumer-market share Microsoft will lose in the interim. [Final Paragraph – “What to expect from the Windows 8 rollout” by Woody Leonhard]

The statement mirrors what I’ve been predicting all along.

To most people imo, all Windows 8 will do is as I originally stated – provide a ton of frustration, with a huge learning curve for little to nil valuable gain. It offers nothing terribly exciting to the average user (per the title of this thread) and is still miles away from even being considered for deployment into a business environment.

Might be worth another look in a year or so, but I guess only time will tell. For now, Windows 7 remains a stable and rock solid operating system. Microsoft would have done far better for themselves and their image in just improving on that success.

Cheers.

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Drewski,

As far as I can tell, the only problem for the desktop/laptop is the UI, and it really will be a problem for many people.

However, for those who are okay with the UI, there really are numerous excellent improvements that make the upgrade a no-brainer.

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Drewski,

As far as I can tell, the only problem for the desktop/laptop is the UI, and it really will be a problem for many people.

However, for those who are okay with the UI, there really are numerous excellent improvements that make the upgrade a no-brainer.

And that really is the truth of the matter. An excellent OS with many useful and important improvements, hampered by a UI that many people will dislike.

The argument will continue to run and run….

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I love everything about W8, except these aspects of the UI:

– the hotspots
– Charms vs Control Panel
– the clunkiness of pinning things to the Start screen and not having sub-menus for links on the Start screen.
– being reminded in many ways that it’s been compromised for tablets and phones.

Also, I can perfectly understand that many experienced users just won’t like the new Start screen and will prefer the old Start button.

Now, what about people who are impatient, aren’t skilled with keyboard shortcuts, or who are not very knowledgeable about Windows? For them, I imagine the UI will be almost unusable on the desktop/laptop when there is a problem or when they want to customise. For this reason, I just cannot believe that the final UI is going to be the same as the RP. It would be the most foolish blunder by MS to not give people the option upfront to make the UI look and operate similarly to XP/W7. The UI is where you spend 95% of your time when not working on programs.

I reckon there will be four types of unhappy desktop/laptop W8 buyers:

1. Those who like novelty and mistakenly assume that it will be easy to create a smooth experience.
2. Those who assume that new is always better.
3. Those who buy it because it’s pre-installed on a new system.
4. Those who think the compromised UI is worth tolerating for the other benefits.

Of course, those who buy for touch-screen laptops will probably be happy, and it seems some people on these threads are happy. Nevertheless, I reckon the upgrade is cheap because MS is aware that it is an experimental UI, but I reckon you will see a huge amount of head-scratching and mocking if they keep the RP UI unchanged. I’m quite used to the system and I am still annoyed by it often, and I often have to think twice to do something. MS have the money and power to get the UI right, so it has no excuse.

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Drew1903,

I’m in a rush, so just 2 quick points:

1. Your theme seems to be that people need to adjust to the product rather than MS designing the product for people. That seems to have things backward to the normal business model. Normally, businesses aim to meet demand. MS can get away with this because of its monopoly position.

2. I was restricting my comments to the many people who will not be happy with it. Whether they should be happy or could be happy seems to be a different issue. But I am very interested in that issue too.

More later.

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Drew1903,

“there is no need to make the OS into something it’s not…”

Yet, that seems to be what you yourself did. You made many customisations and avoided the Start screen.

“there sure is nothing “experimental” about it.”

A first attempt at something, is an experiment to some extent.

“I have no idea what to make of “Charms vs CP”…”

Both Charms and the Control Panel link to different versions of Personalisation and Windows Update.

“suggesting what they will see is yucky, just sets a person up to fail.”

Fair point. But we are not discussing how to communicate about Win8 to others.

“As for 95% of time in a UI when not in Programs… not quite sure what you mean.”

I mean when you do things like windows update, transferring files, connecting to the net, installing a program, etc. Then you’re in the UI. I’m differentiating that stuff (95%) from deeper stuff like programming (5%). For example, you can do a search using keyboard shortcuts, but I guess the majority would go to the Start screen and forget to click on files because it defaults to apps.

“Desktop Toolbar enabled and an Applications folder on the Taskbar”

The toolbar feature on the taskbar has been there at least since XP. And nearly no one uses it.

As for your other points, I just have to repeat what I wrote above: Your theme seems to be that people need to adjust to the product rather than MS designing the product for people. That seems to have things backward to the normal business model. Normally, businesses aim to meet demand. MS can get away with this because of its monopoly position.

On to the topic of whether people should be happy or could be happy with Win8’s UI, I guess some people will dig it. But ideally, we would all create our own ideal UI if we had the skills and the imagination. Previous versions of MS programs were quite customisable, but many people found the previous UI completely satisfying, so they didn’t customise. So MS has increasingly reduced customisation possibilities in their programs. That majority who didn’t customise must be either happy with the old system or not skilled enough to do the customisation. The new system would benefit neither.

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I want to wait until we actually see what happens when Win 8 is released. I for one am hoping the rumors we briefly saw about a user being able to choose to go to the Desktop UI by default are true. If this is the case, these most recent discussions could be partially moot.

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I doubt very much you will be able to go to the desktop by defualt in the released version of Windows 8. Microsoft has too much to gain with the Microsoft store and is definately pushing Metro as the future. Even Office 2013 has been Metro-ized.

Jerry

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1. There is a Start icon in Windows8… a rectangular button.

I don’t think something you can’t push or see can be referred to as a button or icon.

Bruce

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I am shocked that MS and its supporters do not seem to feel any moral qualms with MS forcing the screen hotspots, and forcefully removing the start button, for the desktop user.

Many people don’t want these things forced on them, even if others think its an improvement. I use my computer for 8 hours per day. I see it more than I see my house. In the same way that I don’t want things removed from my house or to see ghosts appearing in my house, I don’t want buttons removed and hotspots appearing out of nowhere on my computer.

MS has cultivated a monopoly position, so it has a moral responsibility not to be so violent and intrusive. People say you can stick with W7, but that’s not fair. Part of the tacit deal with MS is that they will continually improve Windows. People say you can use third party solutions, but that adds risk and is clumsy. Also, it is unpleasant to be working on a system from a company that wants to intrusively manipulate you into its agenda rather than supplying your demand. I just want to work on my projects, not to have to simultaneously ward off some company’s intrusions.

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Did this same attitude or perception try to get applied to the 1st Windows OS to (suddenly) have the old start button/menu?

No; it was a useful feature being added, not taken away.

Bruce

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Nothing is a problem unless you think it is.[/i]

Then you would have no problem with the fact that others are unhappy. But you do have a problem with it.

I will stand firm on this and why? Well, because, my use of Win8 for 5.5 months is living proof & there are countless others that share this understanding & awareness.

I am aware of all the “solutions”. Still annoyed by the problems, and will continue to be annoyed by it. It’s not a choice. It seems that you think we should adapt to what companies want, not vice versa.

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Drew

Do you actually read the posts you respond to, or are you in auto-reply mode?

Martin is right about Microsoft making a major blunder in not making Windows 8 more configurable. You should be able to go into settings and set the boot to the desk top. You should be able to turn off all the hot spots. You should in fact be able to not install the user interface formerly known as Metro and other touch screen features, if you don’t have a touch screen.

The pole that somebody took on this forum shows that 35% of the respondents will not go to Windows 8 and will stay with Windows 7. That’s the kind of response that will be counted as a major failure by the people who actually get to decide what is a major failure, the share holders.

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Drew

Do you actually read the posts you respond to, or are you in auto-reply mode?

Martin is right about Microsoft making a major blunder in not making Windows 8 more configurable. You should be able to go into settings and set the boot to the desk top. You should be able to turn off all the hot spots. You should in fact be able to not install the user interface formerly known as Metro and other touch screen features, if you don’t have a touch screen.

The pole that somebody took on this forum shows that 35% of the respondents will not go to Windows 8 and will stay with Windows 7. That’s the kind of response that will be counted as a major failure by the people who actually get to decide what is a major failure, the share holders.

Obviously this poll respects the most stringent requirements regarding polling! I never cease to be amazed at what people use to justify their opinions.
By the way, and if you allow me to ask, are you a shareholder?

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If Win 8 is installed by 65% of the people using a different OS, that would be considered a resounding success. It appears that Win 7 has just gone over 50%.

This poll is VERY small and only represents a small sampling of even our members. IMO this poll can not yet be considered representative of the world Windows users.

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If Win 8 is installed by 65% of the people using a different OS, that would be considered a resounding success. It appears that Win 7 has just gone over 50%.

This poll is VERY small and only represents a small sampling of even our members. IMO this poll can not yet be considered representative of the world Windows users.

The poll is not representative of anything, except of the few users who chose to reply. All it shows is that 7 out of the 24 users who replied, say they will never upgrade to Windows 8. This represents just those 24 users. A poll that could be used to generalize any conclusions would have to be properly planned, this has no value at all other than expressing the opinion of a minuscule subset of WSL users.

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It is important to remember that the VAST majority of Windows sales & installation do NOT come from upgrades but comes from new PCs. So, you’ll have a choice – Windows 8 or some other non-Microsoft OS. I have a hard time believing that 35% of the current Microsoft base will opt for a non-Microsoft OS.

Joe

--Joe

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A number of years ago I knew a fellow who did polls for a living. He said then that there is a real science behind the construction of a poll. The exact wording, the number of options, the order of options, and more are critical to the accuracy of the poll. I think we can safely say that the polls here are definitely unscientific. That does not mean they are useless just unscientific.

Joe

--Joe

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There is one thing that disqualifies any online (random) poll, such as done here – the population sample. If you want to run a poll that you can draw conclusions from, the sample needs to reproduce, to a certain degree, the population it is meant to represent. I think that is almost impossible to achieve, in these polls.

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No, all I’m simply suggesting is Windows8 can & does work well & nicely & w/out adding 3rd party stuff or retro-fits and, IF, one cares not to or sees no need, w/out visiting Start.
…
And no matter how much some do not want to accept it, see it or believe it, the technologies & hardware, in computing, here & coming, now & soon, ARE actually, in fact & indeed what the (global) market, our culture, business & society are demanding.

Who in the world demanded that Microsoft replace the start menu with something that no one wants to use?

Bruce

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Who in the world demanded that Microsoft replace the start menu with something that no one wants to use?

Bruce

Neither Microsoft nor any other software vendor designs everything based on demand. Some things are just decided in-house without external intervention. That is just the way software is developed. A very large company such as Microsoft has many tools from which to draw information to help guide it in design decisions.

I’ve been using Win8 RTM for a week or so at home on a desktop PC. I’m still learning and customizing the Start screen. I’m finding I don’t really miss the Start Menu. I will say that with Win7 I pinned my most frequently used apps to the taskbar both at home & at work.

While the Start screen tends to be a bit garish for my taste, I really like Live Tiles. As I can devote more time to it, I’m sure that I won’t look back at Win7 as “the good old days”. I have not yet timed it but some things like shutdown and and restart are noticeably faster.

Joe

--Joe

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While the Start screen tends to be a bit garish for my taste, I really like Live Tiles. As I can devote more time to it, I’m sure that I won’t look back at Win7 as “the good old days”. I have not yet timed it but some things like shutdown and and restart are noticeably faster.

Joe

Ditto. I just posted a similar view on another thread. I like the Start screen a lot and after the first couple days of weirdness, I am doing fine without the Start button and menu (a bit of learning on shortcut keys as helped a lot). The Live Tiles are great. As more apps support it, the Start screen will be a lot more informative and fun. I have organized and named tiles in groups, in my Start Screen and I like it more each day that goes by.

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Can be right up there w/ those who think they can predict the future. The only thing I know for sure is that as of Sept. 15, 2012 adoption/use of Windows7 has surpassed WindowsXP.

That is predicting the future.

Bruce

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”a fuss is being made, by some, that makes little sense or has little grounds. All it takes to get to Desktop is 1 click or hitting 1 key, 1 time… hardly worth making it into a ‘big deal’. IF the ‘hotspots’ are turned off, then they aren’t going to work, which would be rather counter-productive. Simply pointing @ things is quick & easy, even more so than clicking all over the place & things in 8 can, thusly, be found or accessed quicker, more directly (less digging, less clicking) than ever before. Can, still, be said that the view towards 8 is a matter or attitude, perception & understanding. Many people are just buying into what others are saying or reading. Consequently, many of the 35% may well be pre-judging 8 w/out knowing the experience w/ it can be more pleasant & enjoyable than they are being lead to believe or it may be because of how they are using it.Drew

Three separate issues here:

1. People making a big deal about metro: MS is forcing metro onto people because it thinks it’s worth the fight. So it thinks forcing metro is important. Why is that? Obviously, they want people to see metro regularly because it wants to condition people – like brainwashing. It’s like having ads popping up for MS every time you walk into the kitchen to make something. That would be okay if it was free software or if there were realistic alternatives, but we are paying for it and there are no realistic alternatives. So it’s a big deal. MS’s action of forcing metro onto us proves that it’s a big deal.

2. Metro more efficient: After the modifications you have made, you might find metro more efficient. I tried your modifications and others’ modifications and I didn’t find them any better than what I was doing on W7. You can’t get any more efficient than one click on the taskbar. And most people won’t make your modifications. Also, metro is potential a giant distraction for some who are tempted to fiddle with facebook and games etc instead of getting work done, so it would depend on your priorities.

3. Others who might like W8 might be prematurely turned off by the criticisms of Metro: This is a fair point. I think it is good that you espouse what you see as the benefits of W8, but I think your arguments for Metro are weak, especially since you largely avoid it yourself.

Maybe, if we all keep these 3 issues separate, then the conversation can be more productive.

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Nothing was replaced w/ “something that no one wants to use”… cus your statement & presumption implies & assumes nobody in the whole wide world wants to use Windows8 & in fact, not everybody is grumping about it & objecting to it, condemning it as YOU are; some, even, actually realise it is darn neat & good. One cannot make such sweeping statements based on what they as an individual think or perceive.

Example, your comment doesn’t apply to me & not to shock you but, not to many others, as well.

My comment certainly applies to you because I was clearly referring to the start screen which you don’t use. Half your posts in the last couple of months have detailed how everyone can avoid it and never visit it.

but I think your arguments for Metro are weak, especially since you largely avoid it yourself.

Exactly.

Bruce

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Drew,

1. I never said Metro is scary. Rather, I find it irritating and distracting and potentially time-wasting.

2. Are you saying that you don’t use the tips you gave us like putting the programs toolbar on the taskbar? That doesn’t fit the impression I got. Regarding the 1 click: I was referring to launching software, folders, etc. from the taskbar, not the start button. As for the start button, I mainly use it when something goes wrong or to reboot or to find an uninstaller if a program isn’t uninstalling correctly, etc. I like it there for that. I know you can get some advanced features by right-clicking in the corner, but I don’t want that.

3. I agree with all your facts (except MS’s stats on the start button). What I disagree with, is your claims that Metro is more efficient, that people just need to sit down with you and all will be revealed, etc.

As for your other points, we have tried your solutions and are not satisfied. We are just saying that we want the choice to be free of all the metro/touch interface. It’s okay if others want the metro interface, but those who don’t want it should obviously have that option available to them. The only reason that option is not available is because MS want to force people to see metro in order to brainwash them in the hope of selling more phones and tablets with the metro interface.

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Now that I have Classic Shell installed, I find I can use all the positives of Windows 8 without having to deal with Metro/Modern UI. The biggest beef I have with Metro is its style that removes all chrome (menu bars) so you can be “immersed in the app”. I have yet to see a Metro/Modern UI app I like. The Metro/Modern UI versions of Mail and IE 10 are terrible. With a Metro/Modern UI app, I’m never sure whether the control I want is in the charms bar>settings or via a right click. Give me a desktop app with chrome any day.

Jerry

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Now that I have Classic Shell installed, I find I can use all the positives of Windows 8 without having to deal with Metro/Modern UI. The biggest beef I have with Metro is its style that removes all chrome (menu bars) so you can be “immersed in the app”. I have yet to see a Metro/Modern UI app I like. The Metro/Modern UI versions of Mail and IE 10 are terrible. With a Metro/Modern UI app, I’m never sure whether the control I want is in the charms bar>settings or via a right click. Give me a desktop app with chrome any day.

Jerry

I found that after a short time of “adjusting” to Modern IE10 that I think it is OK. I don’t find it to be better or worse than desktop IE. Perhaps on a tablet it may be better because of the lack of screen real estate.

I find the Mail app to be way too basic and lacking after having used Outlook and Live Mail for so many years. Outlook in particular has so many more features when it comes to mail. I think Microsoft will update the Modern apps rather quickly and I’ll continue to look at Mail as the app is updated.

I’ll be spending time in both the Modern UI and the desktop.
To each his own though. If you like the desktop stick with it. 😎 :rolleyes:

Joe

--Joe

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That’s why they are called “personal Computers”.

I have IE (and all my browsers) set to show the favorites bar with my favorite sites organized into a series of 11 folders. One folder contains a list of 12 sites I visit every day. I just right click on it, click on open in a tab group and they all open in individual tabs. I read each site inorder and the close each as I finish. I do simler functions in Firefox and Chrome. Couldn’t find any way to do a similar operation in Metro/Modern UI IE.

Jerry

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I have set IE to always open in the Desktop version. I just do not agree that no add-ons are allowed as in the Modern UI. Plus the Desktop version just seems to work more efficiently for me.

I do go to the Modern UI more than I used to. I have downloaded several of the games (you all know of my like of Free Cell, now Mahjong as well). I also seem to be giving advice pertaining to Charms Bar and PC settings quite often. I also think most of the Modern UI apps are very basic. Heck I can’t even set up my POP mail as yet.

For now I will continue do most of my work on the Desktop UI.

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Drew,

“You do not state what is… so “irritating and distracting and potentially time-wasting”…”

This is factually incorrect. I have said repeatedly that I am irritated and distracted by Metro stuff popping up and the differences between Metro versions and Desktop versions of programs/functions, and that the metro apps can be time-wasting by diverting us into facebook or games etc. Also, I still find myself thinking twice to do some things because of the Metro changes, e.g. logging off, windows update, personalisation. Those are all specific examples.

“Things, still, launch from Taskbar w/ 1 click so, again don’t get the complaint.”

That wasn’t a complaint. It was a reply to your claim that things are faster and more efficient with Metro. To prove your claim that Metro increases speed and efficiency, you would have to show that launching programs or whatever is faster and more efficient than a single click on the pre-existing non-Metro taskbar. Actually, can you list three things that are faster and more efficient with Metro? I can think of 3 contenders: start screen search, power menu, and shut-down. However, the start screen search is bad if you have many items found because you can’t sort them according to date or whatever and the items spread horizontally across many screens and the search pane gets in the way, the power menu is hidden and no better than pinning items to the taskbar or start button menu, and shutdown doesn’t include log off or switch user.

“in Windows there are usually a number of different ways to do things.”

But they are removing many important ways, e.g. the start button, and win+tab.

“But, the coercion & brainwashing stuff. Come on, seriously. A bit Orwellian not, reality… it’s the nature of free enterprise not, plot or conspiracy.”

Brainwashing is about repeatedly and forcibly doing something to others now in order to control their future choices. That’s exactly why MS is forcing the Metro stuff onto Desktop users. Removing the start button and having the system start with Metro obviously qualifies – it’s forced and repetitious and intended to make you think of Metro so that you will buy a Metro phone and tablet.

“You want to… hate the new & emerging technologies…”

I love new and emerging technologies. I’m a futurist and want improvement everywhere. I love ALL the improvements in W8, except Metro for Desktop computers. I wanted to like Metro, and did for a little while, but then found it irritating and distracting and timewasting.

“We’ll let people judge the merit of that one for themselves.”

Sometimes it sounds like you work for MS directly or indirectly.

“Many see value & coolness… They are… entitled to their views & to form their own conclusions & feelings by themselves.”

Agreed.

“And I’ll be one of them w/out any more discussion w/ you or your pal, Bruce.”

Bruce is not my pal because I don’t know him, but he seems smart and reasonable.

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